About That Enchanting Suggestion

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RedGiant
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by RedGiant » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:55 am

There are also some very practical perks to be added in tiers as modeled in other schools.

How about this?

Greater Enchantment:
Hold Animal/Person/Monster + Charm Spells duration increased 50%
Dominate Animal/Person/Monster lasts turns per level

Epic Enchantment:
Hold Animal/Person/Monster + Charm Spells duration increased 100%
Dominate Animal/Person/Monster lasts hours per level

These would increase combat efficacy and the duration increase also multiplies a variety of RP scenarios, without being over-powered since it leaves in place the well-known (but mostly temporary or dispellable) counters that exist in game already.
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Versatile
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Versatile » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:17 pm

The 'healthy %' have not actually said that they want the basin workings moved, they've said that they want the enchantment school to be better. A few have said they want the basin works to be removed and a few have said that they do not.

I understand that if you shift basin works to all casters that those who chose the enchantment school are not 'loosing' anything but gaining bonuses to the enchantment school. I'm also not arguing that we want the basin works 'all to ourselves'. What I am arguing is that when you are given certain mechanics to build with, and you build within them, when they are shifted out from under you....

For my own personal situation with an enchanter? Having her be able to control minds better makes zero rp sense for her. It just doesn't fit. I understand that is the school she picked but it isn't the mechanical reason why. The basin was. If when she was created, she would be able to use the basin no matter what, she would have most likely taken the craft scroll/potion/wand feats.

We make what we are trying to be based on the mechanics available. When they are shifted out from under us it feels flat out bad.

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Wytchee
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Wytchee » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:38 pm

I still really like the idea someone proposed (edit: BaronSaturday) of coupling the enchantment basin bonuses with the "craft" line of feats.

Craft Wand, Craft Potion and Scribe Scroll would all commit to the tier of enchantments one could create at the basin.

1 feat: +1 Skill, 33% Success with Runic, 10% Cost Reduction
2 feats: +2 Skills, 66% Success with Runic, 20% Cost Reduction
3 feats: 100% Success with Runic, 35% Cost Reduction

As the enchantment basin is so enmeshed with the fabric that is Arelith, however, I do believe current enchanters should either be grandfathered as they are or be provided with a rebuild/feat exchange; as this change would be so sweeping, however necessary.
Last edited by Wytchee on Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:44 pm

Wytchee wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:38 pm
I still really like the idea someone proposed of coupling the enchantment basin bonuses with the "craft" line of feats.

Craft Wand, Craft Potion and Scribe Scroll would all commit to the tier of enchantments one could create at the basin.

1 feat: +1 Skill, 33% Success with Runic, 10% Cost Reduction
2 feats: +2 Skills, 66% Success with Runic, 20% Cost Reduction
3 feats: 100% Success with Runic, 35% Cost Reduction

As the enchantment basin is so enmeshed with the fabric that is Arelith, however, I do believe current enchanters should either be grandfathered as they are or be provided with a rebuild/feat exchange; as this change would be so sweeping, however necessary.
I also really like this idea. For the "PnP" side of the argument, it fits best, and it gives access to all spell-casting classes. And I believe credit for this one goes to BaronSaturday.

I do have some reservations about a character with 4 bard levels enchanting as well as a level 25 caster, though. Perhaps make the epic focus gate caster level 21 instead of character level 21?

Versatile wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:17 pm
...We make what we are trying to be based on the mechanics available. When they are shifted out from under us it feels flat out bad.

I believe this sentiment has been said many times before, but I believe this is a very elegant expression of things. Bad Things Happen to Good Adventurers, but Bad Things Happening to Players should be avoided or mitigated where possible, IMO.
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strong yeet
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by strong yeet » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:54 pm

...We make what we are trying to be based on the mechanics available. When they are shifted out from under us it feels flat out bad.
Ideally this shouldn't happen. What I believe should be the case is something where those who took Enchantment don't feel slighted or robbed, because the new benefits (some mixture of flat buffs and RP cookies) to the feats/school "weigh" just as much as the benefits of the basin.

Even so, nothing's being shifted. You can still do your basin stuff. It's only that a lot more people can, too.
MoreThanThree wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:58 am
Are the English powerbuilders?

thingsicantdo
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by thingsicantdo » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:44 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:44 pm

I do have some reservations about a character with 4 bard levels enchanting as well as a level 25 caster, though. Perhaps make the epic focus gate caster level 21 instead of character level 21?
seconded that there should be a caster level gate. also, i think the benefits should increase slightly to incentivize taking them on a non-wizard (few spare feats).

i'm also not opposed with merging it with the crafting system somehow, even if the feats are requirements for individual parts of something, and only having a complete kit after 21 caster levels. (and would propose a straight pullover, with cost equalling caster level, and maybe some modification with the DC and using the crafting system's method of calculating everything else)

Rwby
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Rwby » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:51 pm

Is it worth noting that Crafting and Enchanting basically serve one function, 'To Make Gear'. Only we expect enchanting to require at least 3 feats to be any good at it, but we don't require crafting to require any feats to be good at it?

thingsicantdo
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by thingsicantdo » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:55 pm

Rwby wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:51 pm
Is it worth noting that Crafting and Enchanting basically serve one function, 'To Make Gear'. Only we expect enchanting to require at least 3 feats to be any good at it, but we don't require crafting to require any feats to be good at it?
it has a separate system with the crafting points. basically, i guess the idea was to limit creation of items. back then, there was an XP cost associated with enchanting, so you were limited by time one way, or time another, even if you had all the resources in the world

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Rwby » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:57 pm

But we could do something similar with enchantment to decouple it from feats entirely, and thus from a school [or anything]. If we make it feat based, we're admitting that Wizards are better than Sorcerers at it, simply because they will always have more feats to burn.

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strong yeet
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by strong yeet » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:01 pm

Rwby wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:57 pm
If we make it feat based, we're admitting that Wizards are better than Sorcerers at it, simply because they will always have more feats to burn.
This is why I don't like the idea of "moving" the requirements to scribe/craft/brew. It doesn't fix anything, except retain wizard supremacy over item crafting (since they get Scribe for free, and all the bonus feats).

In fact, looking at it from a viewpoint of "only wizards can enchant without significant cost to feat choice" that proposed switch only makes the problem worse.
MoreThanThree wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:58 am
Are the English powerbuilders?

thingsicantdo
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by thingsicantdo » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:15 pm

Rwby wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:57 pm
But we could do something similar with enchantment to decouple it from feats entirely, and thus from a school [or anything]. If we make it feat based, we're admitting that Wizards are better than Sorcerers at it, simply because they will always have more feats to burn.
but... wizards are better than sorcerers at it.

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Wytchee
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Wytchee » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:08 am

I'm convinced that a change is needed, but no change is gonna make everyone happy, and any change will infuriate some people.

At this point everything has been said. We've been going in circles for about five pages now, repeating the same things are nauseam.

It's pretty evident that enchantment needs a change, but I'm sure the dev team has something in mind, so whatevs.
Last edited by Wytchee on Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JediMindTrix
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by JediMindTrix » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:08 am

yea this discussion has run it's course

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