Mark of the Pirate

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Cortex
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Cortex » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:37 pm

It is, however, a massive improvement to combat clique groups that control a "monopoly" of RP, if Benwick had a similar system back in the day, it wouldn't have been as cliquey as it was. And I hope more places get similar systems.
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Marsi
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Marsi » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:07 pm

Cortex wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:37 pm
It is, however, a massive improvement to combat clique groups that control a "monopoly" of RP, if Benwick had a similar system back in the day, it wouldn't have been as cliquey as it was. And I hope more places get similar systems.
How is it a massive improvement? It might combat cliques only because now there is no opportunity for any PC self-organisation at all. Cliques are allowed to hold monopoly over areas of roleplay only because there lacks a sufficient interest in competing with them -- the "freer" the "market" (ie. as little as possible safeguarded by systems which can be gamed and used to wield asynchronous autonomy) the better. I don't really see the point you're making here, if Benwick had a system like this it probably would have been even more stagnant.

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Cortex
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Cortex » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:18 pm

Now if you are a Radiant Heart paladin or some such, people can't "disown" you for whatever reason, you're still a knight of the Radiant Heart, and that's final. People outside any existing clique will treat you as a knight if you've proven yourself to be one (that applies with or without the tag), you can still make use of the facilities, because the only exclusive stuff are quarters, you can't be 'exiled' from it, the same goes to Sencliff. If a character is enough of a contrarian in that group, people inside and outside the guild will begin to treat them as such.

And, end of the day, nothing stops anybody from making a PC organization, you can have your own paladin/do gooder guild without being Radiant Heart, and a privateer without being a pirate of Sencliff.

I'm fairly certain that there's at least one of each example.

Edit: Importantly, both Sencliff and Radiant Heart can easily have its own sub sects (as the RH has had before).
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Sab1
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Sab1 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:40 pm

I like the new RH and pirate sytems, I hope to see more (maybe something for Heartwood grove). I just think instead of automaticly just speaking to an NPC to get in, maybe make people complete a set of quests first.

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Rockstar1984
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Rockstar1984 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:16 pm

Cortex wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:18 pm
And, end of the day, nothing stops anybody from making a PC organization, you can have your own paladin/do gooder guild without being Radiant Heart, and a privateer without being a pirate of Sencliff.

I'm fairly certain that there's at least one of each example.
Yo! *Enthusiastically thrusts hand into air*

Oh the year was 1778...


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Baseili
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Baseili » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:34 pm

The ranks are meaningless at present though Irongron has plans to make certain things accessable depending on it, as for them affecting how crews are formed, they don't. Eventually everyone hits 'Dread Pirate' and the system becomes largely irrelevant beyond the aforementioned plans and the "I'M A PIRATE" red flag attached to your character.

The strangness of Sencliff, well that deserve an entirely new thread.

LemonBerry
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by LemonBerry » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:12 am

I have seen this argument a thousand times and am getting a lot of tells about being reported for meta gaming when I out a topless man.

Just.. stop.

As a player who has had spot on every character.. the disguise skill check is there to hide tattoos or anything else. Consider failing your check and having your mark recognised as you scratching your head absent minded and your sleeve came up.

Its a unpredicted outcome decided by the dice you have the ability to make sure you tip it in your favour don't forget this is a game we play, and not just a roleplay story.

So many times barkskin is used in ooc tells to argue that there is no way I can know despite them failing their check.

Like spot and these tattoos it can be explained. In the example above. Maybe with that spot check and break of disguise you noticed a nervous tick the person had. A tattoo up a sleeve.

Roleplay should never trump skill checks they exsist to make roleplay dynamic and unpredictable that when the former is used correctly the latter is enhanced.

When disguise works as intended I am sure the situation will be resolved with people taking the skills required to do what they want.

Skill checks exsist so we can fail.

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Cortex
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Cortex » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:42 am

Image
:)

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:48 am

u spottin tats through barkskin :?:
\

LemonBerry
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by LemonBerry » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:19 am

BegoneThoth wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:48 am
u spottin tats through barkskin :?:
If someone is determined to argue barkskin blocks all visual tattoos them id simple answer that with realistic out looks the barkskin would also flake over time or be chipped off. The failure of your check is a piece of bark falling off caught on a sword hilt revealing the tattoo.

There should never be a unreasonable god tier cover mechanic.

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Bozonicus
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Bozonicus » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:41 am

Arelith is a wonderful roleplaying world with an evolving story. We roleplay things like bluff, intimidation and persuading via text. We describe drinking, hiding and going potty on dragons. We tell how swiftly our characters climb ropes or how they finish of their enemies with detailed fighting tactics.

Why can't we roleplay pirate exposure in a similar manner? If your character notices suspicious behaviour, or funny shirtless pirates, you're absolutely free to investigate and act accordingly. However deliberately investing in a skill to ensure successful skillchecks is the very opposite of creating an unpredictable situation. Solely acting on a successful skillcheck without roleplaying doesn't support a working roleplaying dynamic.

Disregarding roleplaying is an issue, not our perception of good roleplaying. Most people who complain about receiving metagaming criticism don't roleplay these skillchecks. Appearing prebuffed, calling people their faction title and taking immediate action is not roleplaying. I don't want to be mean, but people put mechanics so obviously in front of roleplay so they don't have to feel bad about possible metagaming or chasing PvP.

I'M NOT CLAIMING PIRATE PLAYERS ARE WITHOUT BLAME EITHER. It is no doubt hard to expose pirates when they try to control how you play the game. If a known naked pirate prances around the city, they shouldn't try defending their dumb actions. :D

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A little fellow
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by A little fellow » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:06 am

BegoneThoth wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:48 am
u spottin tats through barkskin :?:
We get people saying that Drow cannot be discerned from regular Elves when wearing Barkskin all the time, and it is not a good enough excuse then either.

Somebody with the wits (meaning the stats) to tell the difference between an Elf and Drow must be able to regardless of what they are wearing, or the stats put in place for that EXACT reason are useless to everyone who takes them.


Maybe the person recognised the craftsmanship of Drow weapons .. or the accent of a non-native common speaker who’s mother tongue is clearly that of Xanalress .. or knows the smell of UD spores, seldom seen on the surface, which cling to your cloak.

The only difference is that now legitimately questionable characters with pirate tattoos are MUCH more frequently trying to insert themselves into certain situations they would not likely be afforded if their allegiances were common knowledge, when compared to “evil” races.

And more power to them, but there must be a counter balance, and that counter balance is the stats that you choose over others which help you spot these things. A counter, counter balance to theses stats is not to send a tell saying that the other player is meta-gaming ..

If RP is born from chance interactions of two or more characters, each with there their own goals, morals and memories, then stopping everything to accuse somebody who is playing legitimately within the rules is the very definition of being against RP.
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LemonBerry
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by LemonBerry » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:30 am

Bozonicus wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:41 am
Arelith is a wonderful roleplaying world with an evolving story. We roleplay things like bluff, intimidation and persuading via text. We describe drinking, hiding and going potty on dragons. We tell how swiftly our characters climb ropes or how they finish of their enemies with detailed fighting tactics.
You can type how fast you climb that rope all you like, but if you fall on your arse due to a skill check then you dont make sense.

The point being, The Skill checks determin how fast or if at all we can climb the rope

Bozonicus wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:41 am
Disregarding roleplaying is an issue, not our perception of good roleplaying. Most people who complain about receiving metagaming criticism don't roleplay these skillchecks. Appearing prebuffed, calling people their faction title and taking immediate action is not roleplaying. I don't want to be mean, but people put mechanics so obviously in front of roleplay so they don't have to feel bad about possible metagaming or chasing PvP.
And many people enter a town that a particular race is barred from and ignore the guards in that town becuase they are just NPC's.
Many oversights happen to discredit Roleplay, they should'nt.




A degree of Requirement to become a pirate would Solve the issue started in this thread. In regards to my character, She don't believe anyone who claims they took a pirate tattoo to become a spy, it's unreasonable to trust a pirate.

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A little fellow
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by A little fellow » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:15 am

Bozonicus wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:41 am
However deliberately investing in a skill to ensure successful skillchecks is the very opposite of creating an unpredictable situation. Solely acting on a successful skillcheck without roleplaying doesn't support a working roleplaying dynamic.

Disregarding roleplaying is an issue, not our perception of good roleplaying. Most people who complain about receiving metagaming criticism don't roleplay these skillchecks. Appearing prebuffed, calling people their faction title and taking immediate action is not roleplaying. I don't want to be mean, but people put mechanics so obviously in front of roleplay so they don't have to feel bad about possible metagaming or chasing PvP.
I would argue every day of the week and twice on Sunday that deliberately ignoring the skillchecks of both yourself and the person that has successfully checked against you creates a muddy but wholey predictable situation. Those who win the check have legitimate claims to progress with their RP, only to have it completely (and illegitimately) disregarded by the person they have successfully checked against .. which makes onlookers without view of these stats confused and unimmersed at what would eventually become a question of who is telling the truth OOCly.

A working RP dynamic has to work both ways. This is not a platform for anyone to pick and choose which skill checks work for others and not them, hindering the RP of others just so they get what they want. RP dynamics require sacrifices on both sides equally to thrive .. cherry picking only favourable situations for you is not good RP


We had a bunch of outsiders recently enter an area that ICly was restricted, had mechanical restrictions, and in terms of lore had RP restrictions.

To anyone caught in this area there were threats of death and rightly so .. because the RP didn’t /begin/ at the moment they were confronted and attacked.

- The RP began the moment they suggested they enter a restricted area
- The moment they passed by the signs saying /DO NOT ENTER/
- The moment their Dwarf companion spoke with the NPC gatekeeper who betrayed his people’s trust and broke his laws (he won’t be fired don’t worry)
- The moment the numerous NPC guards betrayed their people by choosing not to assail the outsiders, even after a brawl had ensued (they won’t be shunned either)

The fault doesn’t lie at the feet of people who are playing within boundaries of the world that has been created. It lies at the feet of people who disregard the world around them for their own benefit. Know that for every time a pirate fails a check to conceal themselves, there will be a time where a dutiful character fails a check to potentially protect their home.

There is no picking or choosing, unless the characters you are RPing with give you the choice, which they do not have to.
Lovin' you is easy 'cause you're dutiful

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Bozonicus
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Bozonicus » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:24 am

Nobody is trying to stop roleplaying. We're encouraging roleplaying. The lack of rules is the problem and we only wish this isn't some automatic PvP system. People wouldn't be complaining if we knew exactly how the system is supposed to work for both sides. If we establish, that tattoos must be visible in every roleplaying scenario, we can agree to leave accusations and continue our fun lives chasing pirates or plundering seas.

If this current system is deemed to be working, we won't complain. However as long as we see this unsettled, everyone interested has the right to express their opinion. We do want everyone to be happy after all.

(Hopefully there aren't typos. Phone)

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A little fellow
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by A little fellow » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:28 am

Is the system not established?

If you fail a spot check you do not see tattoos.

If you win a spot check you do see tattoos.

If you fail a bluff/perform check your disguise is broken

If you win a bluff/perform check your disguise is maintained.

I think this is the system. And there are ways to effect the outcomes .. by investing skill points appropriately.
Lovin' you is easy 'cause you're dutiful

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Bozonicus
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Bozonicus » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:34 am

But we have found it problematic, which is why we're discussing it and a possible new approach. As previously stated, if we decide to ignore the roleplaying aspect and accept that it relies only on the game mechanics, then we have no problem.

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A little fellow
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by A little fellow » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:37 am

No. We accept the gameplay mechanics and roleplay around them. Think of the mechanics as a skeleton and the RP as the flesh and organs.

Without the RP it’s just a dry, boring pile of bones.

Without the skeleton it’s just a smelly, structureless mess.
Lovin' you is easy 'cause you're dutiful

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Bozonicus
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Bozonicus » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:51 am

I partly support what you're saying, but I still strongly disagree how people spot pirate tattoos from for example their inner buttcheeks while fully clad in armor. If the tattoos are universally on neck or forearm areas, it makes it easier for the opposing players.

We'll wait for the developers' say in this. As I said, if they deem it working fairly for all parties, we'll adapt to it.

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A little fellow
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by A little fellow » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:58 am

I suppose my overriding point is that it needs to be fair.

Telling players who have invested in the appropriate skills that it doesn’t matter under various situations (in all likelihood, a situation where the opposing character hasn’t invested in skillpoints) is the situational embodiment of the word of “unfair”.

Doing this brings up a wider debate where it is not needed, and instills a set of rules for Arelith that will be the point of contention up until the people who implement the rules realise this and change it back to how it is currently.
Lovin' you is easy 'cause you're dutiful

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Bozonicus
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Bozonicus » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:09 pm

I agree. As someone who enjoys less mechanic based roleplaying, I don't want to force it on people who have invested skilpoints for the beforementioned purpose. I think placing the tattoo somewhere visible benefits everyone and helps avoiding these "x-ray vision" situations.

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Tathkar Eisgrim
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:15 pm

I would just like to interject and add:

A good roleplayer might consider ~delaying~ the use of their Spot skill (seeking to mechanically break the disguise) to allow the story of the pirate to develop.

A good roleplayer might mechanically make the check and choose to ~delay~ broadcasting their success / failure. For the good of a story.

I have done this on several occasions recently.

I also go through a mental check list:

- Has this disguised individual done something I as my character would deem suspicious? (helm indoors, skull helm, crown helm, keeping "bad" company, garish clothing and mannerisms).
- Has this disguised individual written a description that opens / closes doors on such suspicions?
- Is the disguised individual fulfilling the role of their disguise archetype (i.e. drawing less attention by appearing mundane).

With a little effort (using the new -description tools) a pirate can easily score points to appear less garish and more mundane becoming a dock labourer, a sailor, a disabled war veteran, a fisherman.

Personally I would be inclined to allow pirates to fall off my radar - if there is evidence they have shown the effort.

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Baseili
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Baseili » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:08 pm

I can't say I agree with the amount of knowledge granted by the tattoo and in such a blatant manner, one that I suspect is directly linked to the Flagship's, and now Ironhelm's, ability to hunt players by name. This is further compounded by both rentable ships being well known pirate vessels only access to pirates. Now there maybe a "Be Nice" rule in place but I am not so naive as to believe that no lawful group has taken to collecting a list of those with the mark so that they can be watched or hunted, as the situation presents itself.
If the information was gained by natural discovery or by being caught in the act of piracy, that'd be fine. You connect the person to the crime, not the tattoo but as it stands currently the tattoo says everything.

We're not so much fearsome pirates but branded cattle in a paddock called Sencliff.

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A little fellow
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by A little fellow » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:28 pm

Baseili wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:08 pm
I can't say I agree with the amount of knowledge granted by the tattoo and in such a blatant manner, one that I suspect is directly linked to the Flagship's, and now Ironhelm's, ability to hunt players by name. This is further compounded by both rentable ships being well known pirate vessels only access to pirates. Now there maybe a "Be Nice" rule in place but I am not so naive as to believe that no lawful group has taken to collecting a list of those with the mark so that they can be watched or hunted, as the situation presents itself.
If the information was gained by natural discovery or by being caught in the act of piracy, that'd be fine. You connect the person to the crime, not the tattoo but as it stands currently the tattoo says everything.

We're not so much fearsome pirates but branded cattle in a paddock called Sencliff.

As Irongron said, the tattoos are a sign of loyalty and a source of intimidation (would be cool if the tattoos have a boost to the intimidation skill).

But whilst I agree that every person with tattoos shouldn’t automatically be subjected to PvP, or fines, or imprisonment ... the life of a pirate should not be a comfy one either. The characters are and should be played as though they are degenerates.
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Sab1
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Sab1 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:38 pm

The 2 main issues with the mark is 20 lore is too low, especially since half of that can come from two rings. Investing 10 lore into your character isn't really a huge investment. The big issue with lore is any lore check is going to get busted fast since the language change, so 30 lore isn't uncommon anymore. I would be against the mark ever not being able to be spotted on someone. But it should be a little challenging to identify.

The second is getting the mark should mean something. As it is right now it's too easy for someone who has no interest to ever pirate to get the mark and the perks while only wanting to be a spy.

A life of a pirate shouldn't be comfy, and you are warned by the NPC. As it should be. Which is why it should be foolhardy for anyone to get the mark as a simple spy tool.

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