Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

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Seven Sons of Sin
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Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:09 pm

(disclaimer, this is a critique of new Cordor, but I wholly respect the effort it must've taken to design it. But after time has passed, I think we should be open to critiquing it. I also don't want to comment on the more "fluffy/style" aspects of it)

I don’t want to focus on my stylistic objections to the new Cordor, because I feel that’s far more subjective than my already subjective critcisms. But we can get into that if we need to. Instead, I want to focus on why Cordor from a more fundamental “playing the game and not the roleplay” problems with the new Cordor layout.

My biggest concern is how un-hub like, and fractured the shops are.

There’s literally shops in every zone of the entire city, or at least, or it feels that way. There’s shops in the Nomad, the two districts, the Mercantile Building, that tavern by the docks, the Northern Outskirts, and I’m probably forgetting some place.
But moreover, the districts and Northern Outskirts are twice (or three times) larger than before. It’s such a tedious chore as a PC consumer to scour across the half-a-dozen zones to see what stock has been changed or added in PC shops. For a trade city, Cordor lacks a centralized marketplace where you can conveniently see all that Arelithians have to offer.

MOREOVER

Not minding the scattering of PC shops, the NPC merchants face the same concerns. The Mercantile Building, the new Haulfest, the Bank, and the Smithie are far apart. Why isn’t the bank near the mercantile centre that is the Temple District? It’s a carry-over from Old Cordor that doesn’t make any sense.

MOREOVER

The bank’s location in general is annoying. It’s not central to NPC OR PC shops. PC stall shopping is a pain, transitionig multiple zones back and forth in order to make a sale.

My second concern is the location of the Nomad, and the “hub” like feeling of new Cordor.

The most trafficked area of Cordor is arguably the Northern Outskirts-Temple Message Board route. This poses two concerns.
1. The Nomad isn’t beside the Temple Message Board. There’s no convenient, “let’s step inside the tavern eh?” that the previous Aristotlus street had.
2. The Temple Message board isn’t centrally located in the Temple District, it’s tucked in a corner. It’d be great if it was in the middle of all those pools, so the middle of the Temple District can be an actual “middle/hub” area.

High traffic activity in Cordor should be more in Cordor. The Nomad should be *in* Cordor. Everything you should want in Cordor, should be in some centralized zone, where you can put all the important aspects of the city in one place:
PC economy, the Nomad, and the Message Board.

With the destruction of Wharftown, Cordor is the hub, the starting area, and an important part of the server. Beyond the narrative of our roleplaying, it should also smartly function as a hub for PC activities. Right now, it’s lackluster, inconvenient, and arduous. Without delving into how we lost the slums, we lost “city streets”, and we lost the feel of a city, New Cordor just doesn’t function as a crossroads for the PC economy or creating roleplay. Cordor should be redesigned to serve as a more opening and accessible starter city, and the primary “urban place” for roleplay.
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Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:48 pm
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Cortex
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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Cortex » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:23 pm

I kind of agree that walking around a lot of empty space can be a dull and I'm often shamelessly just running to make time.
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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Nitro » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:39 pm

I do think that Cordor does sort of feel like two big squares are the moment, there aren't really any streets except for some dead-end nooks and crannies here and there which also leaves two large empty spaces in the middle of each of the maps, for the arena it makes some sense, but it's essentially a bit rectangle that you need to walk around to get to anything.

I do like that it was condensed down to two maps from the 4 it was before, there's a lot less running between transitions to check stores, get to different parts of the city or checking your bank account, but there's still a fair bit of it left around.

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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:53 pm

Making each district (culture, government) a separate smaller PC government with its own elected leader and whatnot would jazz up RP in the districts as well.

This has been done in the past. The baronial age existed as part of Cordor’s history.
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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by JediMindTrix » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:54 pm

Cortex wrote:I kind of agree that walking around a lot of empty space can be a dull and I'm often shamelessly just running to make time.
This I do too. It could use better map notes as well.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:24 pm

I gotta say, I have noticed an uptick in players, new and old alike, just dashing through Cordor.

And you know, Cordor just got a new Queen. Maybe this is a good opportunity to make some changes?
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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:44 pm

Did someone edit my post? And not tag it? I don't recall ever writing this
This has been done in the past. The baronial age existed as part of Cordor’s history.
Nor do I know about Cordor history or whatever the baronial age is
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:02 pm

Methinks maybe someone with moderator powers meant to quote & reply, but accidentally edited instead.
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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by TimeAdept » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:19 pm

Broadly speaking I think Cordor would benefit from Gov't and Cultural being split into two districts Sharps and Devil's style, with a Hub area consisting of the Nomad, the Temple, and some shops. The RP in the server already supports this in broad and specific strokes, though I'm not sure of the King's end of suddenly having two governors, or whatever you'd want to call it, instead of a single High Chancellor. It has the opportunity to create 2 mini cities, though, which may be counter to the current sort of cohesive feel Cordor has vs most every other settlement.

Running around everywhere to check shops is a pain, but it's also an easy way to run into people. I also admit to shamelessly running, and then stopping to walk when I see other PCs.

I always thought the Nomad was Cordor's biggest security issue - it's an entrance through the city walls with no guard,s no security, just a tavern from outside into the heart of residential districts. It's an ambush into internal siege waiting to happen - and I'm surpised it hasn't already.

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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:48 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:Methinks maybe someone with moderator powers meant to quote & reply, but accidentally edited instead.
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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by RedGiant » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:01 am

I love all the attention to detail of the new Cordor. That being said, the shop things do not bother me at all, nor does the placement of the bank. What I miss is the distinct districting that existed in old Cordor and made it feel like a sprawling medieval metropolis.

I totally agree with the two-big square point, and in fact, if you want to see the seedy side of Cordor, its kinda just squished into a part of one square.

I dunno...visually new Cordor is stunning, but I would like to recapture the more alley-ed feel of the old, updated to the new design sensibilities.
Last edited by RedGiant on Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Thanatosis » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:51 am

New Cordor looks really nice, and I like all the new stuff it has. But it feels very open (not in a good way), and it takes a really long time to load.

RedGiant is pretty spot on with how also a lot of the "seedy" part doesn't feel... seedy, it just feels squished onto the rest of the city, like an afterthought. Doesn't seem like a big difference. It all just looks the same... everywhere, not just for that section specifically.
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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Dr. B » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:04 am

Yeah, it looks really nice, but walking around it is somewhat tedious. On the plus side, it could probably be improved without any major overhaul--just make the mercantile building more spacious and add some more of the bare necessities to it, like a bank, smith, temple merchant, and food merchant. This doesn't mean you'd have to get rid of Haur, the Cordor Bank, the priest of Waukeen, Nomad, or any of that (Andunor has many redundant merchants and several banks, for instance, but it also has a central Hub with all of these things.)
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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:21 am

Personally...I would love to see an expansion on the slums, make it more slummish, maybe there's an actual risk of being robbed by NPC's. Or killed by robbers...have cheap hovels in there you cant rent, but you could stay in....small things.

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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Durvayas » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:28 am

The last time I played a surface PC, Cordor had the many districts. And lower cordor felt like a seedy, slummy, rough and tumble area. A hostile NPC tried to murder my PC, and that was great. I ran into the merchant district, and was rescued by a guard. My PC came to learn that lower cordor was not a place to go at night. It was awesome, the city felt alive. It felt like there was space for crime syndicate/gang RP, for class warfare(peasant unrest), and like the city was always sort of being kept in line by a strong army of cordoran guards. It had all the hallmarks of a medieval trade city, and this was great.

My banite later left the city for wharftown(RIP WT), where all that sweet banite RP was, and I never set foot in cordor again(The banite wars seriously poisoned my opinion of conflict on the surface. I switched to playing UD, and kinda just stayed there, but this is not a thread about that topic.)

I've spent the last six years in the UD, and now, playing a surface PC again and giving that side of the server another chance...

I'm really not fond of cordor's layout. I don't want you to take this as criticism so much as honest feedback, but the entire city is simply too big. It takes ages to traverse, its a pain in the Snuggybear to find anything, to shop, to sell your stuff to the appropriate NPCs requires running from one end of the city to the other.

I've been running around cordor for several days now on a new PC, and the first thing I noticed was that it takes a while to load the map, the second thing I noticed, is that the slums are simply gone. Running around cordor kinda feels like the whole city is one big plaza, with all the roads to where people actually live barricaded. A city where the poor have been exterminated, because everything is middle class or better here. It doesn't feel very medieval, it feels renaissance, like cordor is the merchant quarter of a 15th century italian trade city, but the poor section of the Most Serene Republic of Cordor is just absent. Its kinda immersion breaking for me.

But again, Cordor is absurdly large. I'm pretty sure that you can fit the entirety of Andunor in one of its districts, if not just the archives(definitely the archives for sure). From the perspective of a UD player playing new cordor for the first time, I can see why people are prefering to play their humans in Andunor. The ease of use for simply playing the game(buying/selling/banking/meeting people) in the city is leagues more convenient and enjoyable in the UD. Sure your PC might get murdered in Andunor, but it doesn't feel like you need to sprint everywhere, and for all cordor's population, the city feels thinly populated I rarely ever see more than 3-4 PCs at a time. The entire place just feels like it needs to be condensed.

As an aside, for the life of me, I can't remember the last time I heard IC or OOC that the cordor arena was being used. It is enormous, taking up a full third or so of the city itself, and feels kinda really out of place in a city where slavery is banned.(A crazy idea might be turning it into a giant open air market/forum for royal announcements, etc.) From a design standpoint, I'm not sure why its there to be honest.

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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:53 am

The arena generally gets used for Guard training and minor sparring.

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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Astral » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:01 am

for the "you two settle your problems in the arena" thing.
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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Irongron » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:12 am

While I am very fond of Cordor there are some good points raised here, not least of which is the excessive walking time and the lack of a full-blown 'thieves' area.

I could give a long considered response as to the nature of its design, but with other projects pressing now isn't the best time for that (or for a major overhaul of the city)

To address some of this though I have just updated the Mercantile Building, to include a banker, an extra enchantment basin, temple services and more player shops. This should heavily cut down on the need to traverse large areas for those with no interest in exploring the larger city and looking for a 'one stop' shop for essential services. (after next reset)

Later in the year I may look at some of the other issues raised (though I suspect after the launch of EE all that extra space in Cordor will be quite welcome, just as loading times will be reduced).

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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Nitro » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:16 am

And according to the NPC in the arena prep grounds people can choose to exercise their right to execution by arena fight. Though I don't think that's ever been invoked, or even been part of the actual laws.

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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Cybernet21 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:45 am

I for one agree the arena can stay,it's the place used for guard trainings and gives opprtunities to have tournaments happen (one or two happened ever since i got into arelith,they are not that common but they happen).Perhaps it's possible make the arena its own map? (like making another gate transition by the side of the graveyard gate where it leads to a map with just the arena there)

It would be one more transition yes but one that would only be used when you wanted to use the arena and would make a easier to travel around mercantile district sincea huge chunk would be gone,it would probably make the map smaller but it seems this is the goal of the people here

EDIT:My character cant go on cordor atm to see that sweet hub like mercantile building update :( Thank God i have alts :lol:
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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:31 pm

Irongron wrote:While I am very fond of Cordor there are some good points raised here, not least of which is the excessive walking time and the lack of a full-blown 'thieves' area.

I could give a long considered response as to the nature of its design, but with other projects pressing now isn't the best time for that (or for a major overhaul of the city)

To address some of this though I have just updated the Mercantile Building, to include a banker, an extra enchantment basin, temple services and more player shops. This should heavily cut down on the need to traverse large areas for those with no interest in exploring the larger city and looking for a 'one stop' shop for essential services. (after next reset)

Later in the year I may look at some of the other issues raised (though I suspect after the launch of EE all that extra space in Cordor will be quite welcome, just as loading times will be reduced).
Wow, this is great, Irongron, thanks!

I didn't want to address the "tonal" aspects of design, but others have brought it up. I just know in other popular MMOs (which Arelith isn't, but resembles, sort of) having an accessible "hub" really goes a long way for player QoL.
Marsi wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:48 pm
because the narrative wills it.

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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Spyre » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:46 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:Did someone edit my post? And not tag it? I don't recall ever writing this
This has been done in the past. The baronial age existed as part of Cordor’s history.
Nor do I know about Cordor history or whatever the baronial age is

Yeah, that was my bad! Meant to quote but apparently hit edit! Off to the shadow plane I go!

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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Nitro » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:38 pm

And for the record, the Baronial age was a long time ago (What, 12, 13 years ago now?) during which time cordor was split up into different districts ruled by nobility, primarily Barons (hence baronial age).
It was marked with strife and very little getting done as everyone was constantly at eachothers throats.

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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by flower » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:43 pm

Keep high chancellor as position for some noble appointed by king, but make each partof cordor own mayor.

Chancellor would be above mayors with some general perks applying to all parts of city while mayors would have limited powers within their district (property ownership, shops, taxes).

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Re: Discussion/Suggestion: We Need a Better Cordor

Post by Dr. B » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:51 pm

Irongron wrote:While I am very fond of Cordor there are some good points raised here, not least of which is the excessive walking time and the lack of a full-blown 'thieves' area.

I could give a long considered response as to the nature of its design, but with other projects pressing now isn't the best time for that (or for a major overhaul of the city)

To address some of this though I have just updated the Mercantile Building, to include a banker, an extra enchantment basin, temple services and more player shops. This should heavily cut down on the need to traverse large areas for those with no interest in exploring the larger city and looking for a 'one stop' shop for essential services. (after next reset)

Later in the year I may look at some of the other issues raised (though I suspect after the launch of EE all that extra space in Cordor will be quite welcome, just as loading times will be reduced).
Awesome! Thanks!
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