Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

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RedGiant
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Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by RedGiant » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:18 am

In order not to muddy the barbarian thread, I continue this here.

Peppermint wrote:Most old servers weren't capped at level 20 because it was "better balanced". Most old servers were capped at level 20 because that was the level cap. Epic levels weren't added until HotU, and by then, it was difficult for many servers to simply raise the cap; they just didn't have the high level content to support it.]).
Not to quibble, but I said "many RP servers", not "not most old servers". This isn't semantics. I was variously on staff at no less than three PW/RP category servers in the early years, where we had these conversations. I can only speak for my experience, in which balance was always the concern...especially when it came to PvP. Moreover, the game is flat broken at lvl 40, where certain classes can amass the potential to practically completely negate other classes (e.g. lvl 40 epic monk SR potential). Compared to these concerns, slapping in some OP monster content we never considered too difficult a challenge. I also acknowledged that the expansion raised the level cap, which actually supports my point. Neither DnD nor NwN, as originally conceived, were designed for levels 21-40.
Peppermint wrote:Multiclassing is frequent in 3.X D&D. It's an absolute necessity if you want to be optimal.
This is a somewhat shocking statement, with building implications the Arelith staff should soon decide.

I think the real question is: Is pure-classing worthy of balancing? Obviously, I would say yes to this question...and the spate of 28+ perks seem to point this direction.

In the context of a 30 lvl server, Arelith has already decided it doesn't want to encourage certain unsavory builds (e.g. 28 Sorc/1 Pal/1 Monk). Yet, should our general idea of a Wizard be a 26 Wiz 4 Bard with a disc/tumbl dump and ESF:Disc (who can also likely sneak up on tower wardens at will)? I hope the answer to this second question is a resounding "no".

Though I've said this several times already, I think the staff has already hit on an elegant solution which allows current optimization to continue, but incentivizes pure-classing.

Let wizards be wizards I say.
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Commie
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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Commie » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:30 am

They do good work on some classes, and make the 28 bonus a serious consideration. These abilities ought to be (and seem to be) stronger on classes that don't get the three most vital pvp skills, tumble, umd, and disc.

But it's always going to be a question of trades. I'd never make a 28 healer or druid because I personally value what the monk dip gives those builds. Others don't feel that way, and for them they get unique forms and abilities that are really good.

The wild-mage is another good example, the level 28 ability grants so much flexibility and the ability to dump so much raw damage down-range in an instant, you may almost forget you didn't have disc/tumble, until you get caught in combat un-warded.

But that's a healthy sign, when you have to sit down and consider if you want 'more numbers' in terms of AC/Disc/Evasion/UMD, just generally good-stuff to have, or cool toys/abilities.

Either way, to answer your question, is pure-classing worthy of balancing? Yes, and it should remain a choice, where it's at least as equally viable as a 'tumble/umd/disc' dump class spread.

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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:42 am

Realistically, no one would ever pure class if this was actual 3.5, because there's hundreds of awesome prestige classes.

Instead, we opt to simulate these mechanics through multiclassing with what we got in NWN. I don't think there should be a strong focus on pure classing, unless we continue down the road of paths, which honestly act like archetypes from Pathfinder, and to a lesser extent, base class/prestige class hybrids. Spellsword is a good example of what is sort of a Magus, and sort of inspired by a host of "spell sword" prestige classes from 3.5.

What people get up in arms about is UMD, Disc dump, Evasion/Uncanny Dodge, Tumble dump, Spellcraft dump, etc.

I think the addition of more class-specific gear can help remedy this. And let's not forget, when people argue builds on the forums, it's purely a numbers game. It's purely hypothetical. PVP does not equal winning RP. PVP can occur less than 5 times on a character's lifetime.

I think if we shift the discussion towards PvE content, I think we'd certainly see less of a focus on the aforementioned.**

**I also believe we should have challenging high-level dungeons, albeit, I have not had a level 25+ character in many years, so maybe there is a lot.
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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by gilescorey » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:42 am

You're right, RedGiant. Taking those 3 bard levels really just doesn't make a wizard a wizard. You're only a wizard with those 3 precious, arbitrary notches on your character sheet, right?

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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Tetra » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:54 am

I remember when I tried WOW after NWN many years ago I felt super constrained by not being able to dabble in any other classes and that everyone is basically built the same. My favorite thing about NWN used to be coming up with class and skill combinations then building an interesting character around them. Druid/bards and cleric/rogues and whatever, why not? You could make them work well enough to keep up in a party.

I don't care as much now, and as I'm now (more or less) an adult I don't have the time or patience for struggling with weak characters but I don't think venerating pure classes as the ideal and making multi-classing a bad thing is a way to go either. Although frankly making bard/rogue skilldumping only one possible option of many would be a great boon.

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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by hoshi » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:59 am

I think there is a bit of a disconnect when at let's say level 26 your character is a heavily armored tank and nothing more, then suddenly at 27 they're a master acrobat, spell resistant, and capable of using any magical item. I don't have an issue with a character possessing all that, but it would be nice if the formula allowed you to do something like 5 barbarian, 1 bard, 5 barbarian, 1 more bard, etc but still require 3+ levels in every class by 30. That also prevents the mentality of "high epics being the real starting point" some may have that leads to racing to the top.

As far as pure classing goes, it would be nice if there were some bonuses as you leveled, specifically to Discipline and Spellcraft. Something like if Skill Focus was reworked to give you a bonus equal to your current ranks in it, but only if it was a cross class skill for ALL of the classes you had taken. You're still better off multiclassing and you're having to devote a feat to it, but it keeps the ceiling and floor a bit closer.

Example:
Pure level 30 rogue right now with CCing Discipline and grabbing skill focus: 16(ranks)+3(skill focus)=19+gear

Pure level 30 rogue with skill focus discipline as I outlined 16(ranks)+16(skill focus)=32+gear

Multiclass level 30 rogue/ranger with epic skill focus 33(ranks)+10 (epic skill focus)=43+gear

*Edit - Originally had a more complicated formula but just changed it.
Last edited by hoshi on Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Commie
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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Commie » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:02 am

Alternatively, disc, tumble, and umd could just be made class skills for all classes, eliminating the need to horde skill points until the very end and ending the neigh-mandatory 3 level dump from 27-30.

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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by hoshi » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:04 am

Yeah I wasn't sure if that was something that could be done without haks, if so at the very least Discipline/Spellcraft, I could see Tumble/UMD being something you have to give up another thing for.

Edit: I'm all for well done multiclass characters being mechanically stronger, but I don't think you need to have such a huge gap in some basic skills that anyone should pick up after adventuring about Arelith.
Last edited by hoshi on Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Giftstoff
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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Giftstoff » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:05 am

Pureclassing should be just as attractive as multiclassing.

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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Sockss » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:14 am

Pure classing should be attractive alternative to multi-classing; it's low hanging fruit for more variance - however, I don't believe that pure-classing bonuses should ever imitate those that have multiclassed (See healer as a fantastic example as a pure-classed bonus).

More choice, more content = more fun.

And from what I've been seeing with recent updates, is that this easy-pure-class bonus is recognised and capitalised upon by the dev team more often.

However, saying any of the following is just wrong:

1) PnP is balanced
2) 3.5 doesn't encourage multiclassing
3) Level 20 capped servers wouldn't encourage multiclassing
4) The game is not mechanically broken at default at the level cap of <Insert arbitrary number here>.
5) Monk on a 30 cap is easier to kill than at a 40 cap (Through MIGHT or MAGIC)

Also, being unable to wrap your head around RP'ing a game mechanic (E.G. Grabbing high ranks of tumble / discipline in a level) is through no fault of mechanics.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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Giftstoff
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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Giftstoff » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:50 am

Sockss wrote:...
I agree those arguments hold no place in the discussion.

Pureclassers just need some tidbits to make the lack of UMD/Tumble/discipline dump worth while.

Say a pure wizard gets +1 DC to all spells or something similar.

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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Nitro » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:30 am

Giftstoff wrote:
Sockss wrote:...
I agree those arguments hold no place in the discussion.

Pureclassers just need some tidbits to make the lack of UMD/Tumble/discipline dump worth while.

Say a pure wizard gets +1 DC to all spells or something similar.
The problem is balancing it for both PvP and PvE content though. Not being safe against knockdowns is a death sentence in PvP against someone who knows their stuff, but in PvE you can just avoid going to places with enemies that spam wing buffets and the like. So if you give a big buff to compensate for the PvP, there's a risk of it impacting the PvE balance.

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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by hoshi » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:00 pm

Sockss wrote: Also, being unable to wrap your head around RP'ing a game mechanic (E.G. Grabbing high ranks of tumble / discipline in a level) is through no fault of mechanics.
When did I mention anything about RP? There is a disconnect in how your character plays.

What I don't like is the race to the top attitude that can spawn from it as some might feel they only have half a character until they skill dump/gain x class feature. And the system rewards going many levels with half a character for several builds.

I think a simple change to the formula would let people have a character that plays like they want from early levels. Some might choose to not to take advantage of it due to optimal BAB etc concerns, a few builds might be slightly stronger but I don't think it would vary much at level 30.

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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Giftstoff » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:19 pm

Nitro wrote:
Giftstoff wrote:
Sockss wrote:...
I agree those arguments hold no place in the discussion.

Pureclassers just need some tidbits to make the lack of UMD/Tumble/discipline dump worth while.

Say a pure wizard gets +1 DC to all spells or something similar.
The problem is balancing it for both PvP and PvE content though. Not being safe against knockdowns is a death sentence in PvP against someone who knows their stuff, but in PvE you can just avoid going to places with enemies that spam wing buffets and the like. So if you give a big buff to compensate for the PvP, there's a risk of it impacting the PvE balance.
PvE will always be a joke because its against extremely simple AI that are easily tricked by many different tactics. Its not an issue. You can go from 1-30 without AC, saves, or discipline very easily.

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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Commie » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:53 pm

It's true. While leveling (a year ago on a different server so no callouts here) I saw a meteor swarm spamming wizard that didn't do buffs beyond mage armor and stat buffs. When asked why no imp invis or haste/mass haste, the reply was "I don't learn bad spells."

It doesn't matter how 'hard' or 'easy' PvE content is, because in a group-centric game you can always, ALWAYS snag a group to carry you through it no matter how bad you are.

Hell a guy in classic WoW did a grand experiment where he made a hunter, equipped no items beyond bows he found on the ground, used no spells, no talents, and just employed a 'start auto-attack and pet attack on target' macro. Got to 60 with 0 deaths inside of like 3 weeks. He did it to prove a point about why so many hunters sucked at the game (ie you could hit 60 easily with any build/spell spread) but really just demonstrated how easy the dungeon content was with groups.

PvE by its nature is a joke or impossible, there's very few times it's actually very very difficult. I think the only 'hard' PvE I've encountered here was doing Talossans at <8 when the chain lightnings and missile swarms just 1 shot some of us.

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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by RedGiant » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:47 pm

There is a lot of good thought here, IMO.
Giftstoff wrote:Pureclassing should be just as attractive as multiclassing.
Yes! The very substance of the 'pro' argument.
Commie wrote:But that's a healthy sign, when you have to sit down and consider if you want 'more numbers' in terms of AC/Disc/Evasion/UMD, just generally good-stuff to have, or cool toys/abilities.
Totally agree, and a nice summation. In short, make pure-classing pose at least a worthy dilemma.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:What people get up in arms about is UMD, Disc dump, Evasion/Uncanny Dodge, Tumble dump, Spellcraft dump, etc.
This is part of the problem, I agree, but phrasing the problem this way implies the solution is to eliminate dumping, which I think causes more problems than it solves. Going down that road could put a variety of multi-classing and prestige-classing options in a bad spot, which is not the intent here.
Tetra wrote:Although frankly making bard/rogue skilldumping only one possible option of many would be a great boon.
Yes! As above, making pure-classing worthwhile would actually increase the amount of real choices.
Sockss wrote:Pure classing should be attractive alternative to multi-classing; it's low hanging fruit for more variance - however, I don't believe that pure-classing bonuses should ever imitate those that have multiclassed.
Are you inside my head? Exactly what I was thinking! And your second point is VERY important. Chaos Mage and Druid continue to be great examples of 28+ pure class perks done well. I think making discipline, etc. ubiquitous would have deleterious balance effects.
Nitro wrote:Not being safe against knockdowns is a death sentence in PvP against someone who knows their stuff...
This takes my thoughts in an entirely different direction. Many, if not most, "optimal" builds on Arelith center around discipline just so you cannot by punked by this ubiquitous technique. NWN itself nerfed combat techniques that were "too-good", i.e. "Sap". Arelith has also limited many other "too-good" abilities, from IGMS, to Dev. Crit, to heck, even Whirlwind Attack.

Though I will be sure to draw the ire of many with this thought, but..."What if there was a cool-down on Knock-down?!? It never really made sense to me you could attempt to body-check or leg rope (or whatever) your opponent every single flurry action from now to the end of time.

Pure-class perks + KD cool-down. I would vote for that ticket in the next election!!!
(Though I realize we live in a benevolent dictatorship....)
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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Cortex » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:30 pm

Nitpick, whirlwind is nowhere good enough to be standing next to Dev Crit or IGMS.
:)

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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Tetra » Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:39 pm

Commie wrote: PvE by its nature is a joke or impossible, there's very few times it's actually very very difficult. I think the only 'hard' PvE I've encountered here was doing Talossans at <8 when the chain lightnings and missile swarms just 1 shot some of us.
The time it's difficult is when you are learning the game. It's "easy" because there isn't a lot of variance once you know all the tricks, the dungeons layouts, what monster does what. If you finish a dungeon once you can pretty much repeat it using the exact same tactics.

But saying it's easy or a joke is like a veteran Mario 64 speedrun player saying that game is easy or a joke. Once you've memorized everything and commit it to muscle memory there's no challenge left, sure it's easy- but it wasn't the first few hundred hours you played.

But in short- PVE is still very challenging to many people here, who haven't been around for many many years and who haven't done all there is to be done or seen all the server has to offer.

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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by SwampFoot » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:42 pm

I'd love to see a level 28 boon for all classes. I'd also love to see some things changed to make more levels of particular classes a more viable option. Rogues, for instance: No one ever needs more than three levels and taking more seems like self punishment when some classes do it better.

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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:48 pm

Dex WMs make heavy use of rogue levels. I'm not going to deny that the class needs buffs, but saying that there's never a reason to take more than three levels is patiently silly.
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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by SwampFoot » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:32 am

Hunter548 wrote:Dex WMs make heavy use of rogue levels. I'm not going to deny that the class needs buffs, but saying that there's never a reason to take more than three levels is patiently silly.
Dex Weapon Masters are also taking heavy rogue for Epic Dodge, something they can get with just 5 levels of SD if they give up UMD. And they'd get HiPS as a bonus. There is literally nothing that a rogue can do that a dipper can't do and often times the dipper does it better.

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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Sab1 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:34 am

At one point the server was giving boons to those taking more and more of a class, like a pure druid companion was extremely tough, but think all of that went away.

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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Wytchee » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:52 am

Sab1 wrote:At one point the server was giving boons to those taking more and more of a class, like a pure druid companion was extremely tough, but think all of that went away.
Pure druid companions are still extremely tough (though you have to choose the dire wolf if you want it to survive more than 15 seconds in combat).

Mae's dire wolf (though eagle skinned) companion would give any warlock's summon a hard time.
AC of 48
AB of +38/+33/+28/+38/+38
7/+7 physical damage reduction
+7 magical damage
+1d10 elemental damage
Hasted
8 regeneration

All at level 21. At level 30 it's comparable in stats to a Dragon Knight.

So yeah, I don't know why people keep saying Druid animal companions suck. :P
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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Commie » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:35 am

SwampFoot wrote:Dex Weapon Masters are also taking heavy rogue for Epic Dodge, something they can get with just 5 levels of SD
What? Don't you need either 10 SD or at minimum 10 Rogue for ED?

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Re: Pure Classing / Multi Classing / Prestige Classes

Post by Wytchee » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:39 am

Commie wrote:
SwampFoot wrote:Dex Weapon Masters are also taking heavy rogue for Epic Dodge, something they can get with just 5 levels of SD
What? Don't you need either 10 SD or at minimum 10 Rogue for ED?
Yes. 5 levels of SD alone does not qualify you for ED.
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