Favoured Souls - A Bard's Path

[Miaou]

Worrying about grinders is a very valid reason to block a class, actually.

Yet warlocks still exist with infi summons and infi spells. Its easier to grind on other classes that I do not feel this stance really holds up in regards to Favoured Soul. If it is given some small changes as many have suggested before, I would gladly like to see more options.

[Cortex]

Are warlocks still that good at leveling? I haven't touched one in a while nor have I seen any IG.

[Wytchee]

Are warlocks still that good at leveling? I haven't touched one in a while nor have I seen any IG.

Feylocks: no, at least not until level 13 and haste.
Fiendlocks: for level-appropriate areas, yes. Darkness tends to trivialize most dungeons, however they're not absolute top-tier in PvE anymore. That title goes to druids.

[Astral]

Worrying about grinders is a very valid reason to block a class, actually.

Yet warlocks still exist with infi summons and infi spells. Its easier to grind on other classes that I do not feel this stance really holds up in regards to Favoured Soul. If it is given some small changes as many have suggested before, I would gladly like to see more options.

1. As I said, a favoured soul without gear or anything can just follow around any party and grind them to 30 WAY faster than the devs intended and you cant really say the same about warlocks who barely have any buffs for other people and are more of a soloing solution for casual players who don't relay on other players to play Arelith.

2. If it's given changes then it's no longer the same path that was removed, that's called Favoured Soul, instead it will be something else if anything at all (that could be still called Favoured Soul but be a different creature mechanically), and will have to be designed again, so what is this thread supposed to do?

If you want to write down a path from scratch and see it goes live, try to do what Jack Oat did when he came up with an idea for a path. He actually wrote it down after he calculated the numbers and then sent it in the suggestion box for the devs to read and do as they see fit (which could be even just being inspired by the suggestion even if it wont go live any time soon). That's how I think we should do things around here because this thread never had any real purpose.

[Miaou]

1. As I said, a favoured soul without gear or anything can just follow around any party and grind them to 30 WAY faster than the devs intended and you cant really say the same about warlocks who barely have any buffs for other people and are more of a soloing solution for casual players who don't relay on other players to play Arelith.

2. If it's given changes then it's no longer the same path that was removed, that's called Favoured Soul, instead it will be something else if anything at all (that could be still called Favoured Soul but be a different thing), and will have to be designed again, so what is this thread supposed to do?

That's how I think we should do things around here because this thread never had any real purpose.

Follow around a group as a normal bard and spam your song. Be a pdk and do the exact same thing. Warlock with summons to tank for the group, a monk to -guard... You can say that about a lot of classes to circle grind places. Hell, you can do it without. It's not hard to grind with any caster class.

Minor changes Joe's not mean it's something new. Changes in duriation, number of casts, and a feat or two were discussed. We don't rename a class every time there's a change to it.

And if you don't think this thread has a purpose, it was a proposal for favoured soul to be returned and to discuss it. People are doing just that. Please remember that dissusing opinions and thoughts isn't purposeless.

[Nitro]

Follow around a group as a normal bard and spam your song. Be a pdk and do the exact same thing. Warlock with summons to tank for the group, a monk to -guard... You can say that about a lot of classes to circle grind places. Hell, you can do it without. It's not hard to grind with any caster class.

Difference is that all of these will run out of resources sooner or later, the bard runs out of songs, the monk consumes kits etc. The warlock, being the remaining infinicaster (TF's don't count), suffers some of the same problems FS does, but it's been nerfed pretty hard from it's glory days, it's spell-list is pretty heavily trimmed, blasts do less damage, and even less if paired with spamming disables, and summons have been tuned down a bit and had timers imposed on them.

[flower]

I played with Brizshala alongside infinite casters.

First, feylock (prior changes, and after changes). Feylock disabled every single npc in the way while buffed party. After changes disabling remained. We could walk trough dungeon with one hand holding bottle of beer.

Now, we play along weave master. Again, difficulty of the game fell down a lot.

In past I travelled along favored soul. Infinite darkness, invis, haste, and healing, pushed the level of difficulty down a lot as well.

You cannot compare them to, lets say a wizard, and claim he can memorized five extended hastes. With infinite caster, you get buffed....got disppeled? Rebuffed in a second. Where wizard would be already resting second time, the FS/Warlock/WeM never stopped.

If we were not lazy and did not play up on the mood, we would already made it several times to 30

[Opustus]

The main problem people seem to have with the Path is that a set of select spells make the class too good for PvE. These spells can be restricted in frequency or even completely removed, it's been done for Warlock and can be done for Favored Soul. Therefore I don't really see a problem with restoring the Path, if the fixes are implemented.

Many of us seem to think that the Path is mechanically and thematically interesting. Does anyone have any problems with the lore aspect of Favored Soul as a Bard Path? If so, what are they? What if the Path retained its mechanical properties but were changed lorewise into something other than Favored Soul?

[Astral]

The main problem people seem to have with the Path is that a set of select spells make the class too good for PvE. These spells can be restricted in frequency or even completely removed, it's been done for Warlock and can be done for Favored Soul. Therefore I don't really see a problem with restoring the Path, if the fixes are implemented.

Many of us seem to think that the Path is mechanically and thematically interesting. Does anyone have any problems with the lore aspect of Favored Soul as a Bard Path? If so, what are they? What if the Path retained its mechanical properties but were changed lorewise into something other than Favored Soul?

The path is freakin perfect in any aspect of the RP. It's Examine is all extremely high if you want it to be. It's a superhero-support-melee-caster-tank-with-damage-and-ab. Of course its tones of fun, no one denies that. I can confirm that it's the most fun class in the game for me after playing one to 30. That, is also a part of the problem, ironically.

[Peppermint]

Favored Souls aren't strong at high levels, but break PvE at low levels.

I've seen a lot of mention that this has been "fixed" to some degree for Warlocks. This is true.

As mentioned when we disabled Favored Souls, the reason Warlocks can be balanced but Favored Souls cannot is that Favored Souls have access to all of the spells. Warlocks, on the other hand, have a small subset, which we get to choose. If there's a problem spell, we can just remove it from their spellbook. We can't do that for Favored Souls. Instead, we have to make erratas and adjustments to each and every problem spell, which quickly becomes unwieldy.

Favored Souls will not be returning. Or at the very least, if they do, it will not be in a form remotely resembling the old path.

[Garveus]

Could a decreased ability modifier that would gradually lower itself the higher the level of Favoured Soul help balance it out?

[Cortex]

Could a decreased ability modifier that would gradually lower itself the higher the level of Favoured Soul help balance it out?

That wouldn't solve the core issues, nor would it feel... thematic or fitting.

[Opustus]

To Peppermint and other peeps behind the curtain:
Don't take this as a vote of no confidence, but what are the spells that should be tweaked for Favored Soul to be viable again? I've attempted rounding up the usual suspects here:
-Clarity, Darkness, Haste, Improved invisibility, Ice storm, Mass haste. I don't see why the rest of the bard's spell list would be too powerful at all if infini-casted. As the OP reasoned, if a Favored Soul invested in spell DC they would sorely lack in damage and AB; as I see it, it's always an either/or situation.

If the list above is accurate, I don't see why it would be unnecessarily unwieldy to balance out. I suggest that you just:
-remove Darkness, Ice storm and Improved invisibility altogether,
-limit Haste and Clarity with the same implement as Feylock,
-limit Mass haste to uses/day.

I'm sorry for pushing it, but why wouldn't Favored Soul be returning in a form remotely resembling the old path? I may have read people wrong, but I think many in this thread have expressed their approval of the Path as is if the problems with too powerful early-game PvM be fixed. Why does it need an overhaul?

[Peppermint]

You're missing Ghostly Visage, Ethereal Visage, Confusion, Hold Person, etc.

The first two of these spells will make a Favored Soul nigh invulnerable when they are acquired.

The latter two are not that useful late, but that doesn't matter; anything that trivializes early content still trivializes early content. That is not good.

None of these spells hold up into epic levels. Favored Souls are not overpowered in epic levels. But early game, they are problematic.

[Opustus]

I've already one bard on Arelith having run extended Ghostlies since level 7 successfully throughout dungeons till my inventory was full of loot. I don't think it is gamebreaking if it works on infini-cast, though arguably it would be slightly more powerful than Bard early on. Ethereal Visage is admittedly powerful and could also be removed or only given in higher levels (if possible?).

Doesn't Confusion also hit your own party? I don't see how this is gamebreaking either.

Sorry, I actually didn't intend to try to dismantle your claim point-by-point. I just remain skeptical if the Favored Soul we used to have is really beyond (minor) repair.

Don't druids, wizards, sorcies, two-handering strength builds and fiendlocks also trivialize early content? Or is Favored Soul really that much more broken early on?

[Durvayas]

Favored souls, as they used to be, had all thr spells, infinitely, which made them about as great at PvE as warlocks, except warlocks still take damage, and eventually run out of healing supplies, they eventually have to pick up allies who fail saves and die.

FS can literally go to a circlegrinding area and NEVER have to leave. They can't run out of wards OR supplies. They heal eternally, someone dies? No biggie either. They have infinite sustain, limited only by how much food and water the PC has on their person.

[Nitro]

Favored soul gets access to Ghostly visage at level 4. 5/+1 with 10% concealment and immunity to 1st level spells makes you more or less immortal until you get out of the lowbie areas, any chip damage that you do take you can just immediately heal up with your infinite heals.

Then, we get up to level 7 where you suddenly get an extra attack per round, 4 AC and +2 AB courtesy of haste and GMW respectively, that's on top of your permanent zoo buffs and ghostly visage, letting you and whatever party you attach to waltz through level appropriate areas like they're nothing.

After that we hit level 10, which unlocks permanent 50% concealment (Unless you wanted to micro displacements even earlier), and the FS train finally starts slowing down a little. You can't solo walk through everything effortlessly, but any group you attach to becomes immortal at 0 maintenance, and 0 need to rest. (You can still solo with darkness/confusion spam though, just slower)

Then at level 13 you become immortal again, since almost no Arelith mobs pre-epic have weapons that can get through 20/+3 DR, letting you fulfill whatever dreams you have of facetanking mobs, either solo or in a group.


It's after this point that other classes slowly start regaining usefulness, but you never truly stop being useful thanks to the infinite healing and buffing, but by the time that you've reached the late teens and other classes actually conceivably bring more to the party than you do, you've already trivialized well over half the leveling process for yourself and your friends.

Could it be changed to work better in Arelith? Maybe, but then it'd be a pretty large investment, either to rebalance areas to handle infinicasting again (Saves creep up again, dispels become more prevalent) which screws with non-infinicasters. Or, you change the class itself, edit all the spells or take them away from the FS, but then you end up in a situation where the amount of time spent rebalancing a FS that doesn't even work like FS's are supposed to in the lore might as well be spent creating a proper FS class.

I don't disagree with you that infinicasters are a lot of fun to play, but they are near impossible to balance alongside vancian casters without severe restrictions (like warlocks have).

[Peppermint]

I was going to respond again, but Nitro just about covered it.

[Opustus]

Again, sorry if I'm too insistent, but I don't think it's a fair claim that the whole module would have to be balanced round a single class. Wouldn't you say that a GSF Conjuration Wizard with its burly summons or a Kensai Fighter/Barbarian is utter whompage in early levels? Cleric is a breeze from level 3 to 30, yet I haven't seen an effort to nerf it or creatures evolved to counter it (might be sorely mistaken on this one though). All of the aforementioned builds can buy 30 +1 Healer's kits for a pittance to keep them healthy throughout the crawl; in my humbledore, that's not a huge investment.

If the problem is only the early levels and a couple of spells that break it (I still don't understand how, in comparison to certain classes, other spells than Ethereal Visage and Darkness are a dealbreaker), I think you're splitting hairs or exaggerating the impact of FS onto early levelling.

"...rebalancing a FS that doesn't even work like FS's are supposed to in the lore might as well be spent creating a proper FS class."
We have at least easy ways round that. 1) People can just RP it out, disregarding what some silly lore book might have told us. (I guess players have pulled it off so far?) 2) The OP has suggested that the Path be made into something else lorewise. Further, in my experience it is much easier to revise an old project than it is to launch a whole new one, though I guess Pepper's a better judge of that in this case.

[Dorkas]

I think FS was a really fun class and agree it was awesome for PvE. While I would love the chance to play it again, I don't think it should be brought back. As a reward? Maybe, not as a regular choice for anyone though. Although, warlocks are still selectable to anyone, meanwhile assassins require permission which makes no sense to me.

[WanderingPoet]

When playing solo or in small groups - wizards already have infinite concealment (effectively, its a long last spell), and ghostly visage - warlocks get hold person/confusion without a cooldown and ghostly visage as well as well as infinite haste for two people. Of course, so do regular bards.

I mean yes, some of these are pretty powerful - but outside of Ethereal Visage, none of them trivialize content any more than other classes. I've seen warriors consistently crit for 100 damage per hit in the teens which kill things almost instantly, and druids with stoneskin/greater stoneskin tank all day long. Given that RPR alone will take you to the low teens rather quickly, ghostly visage is hardly a deal breaker - and other classes can haste as well.

What I suppose I'm failing to see is why the idea of a FS not needing to rest is such a problem - it speeds up grinding, sure, but like I said - those that want to grind will find ways to do so, those that aren't interested will find other RP. Shaving off 5 minutes from a 'loop' because they don't have to rest, hardly seems like an overly powerful trait of a class.

Clerics are just as easily able to raise the entire party after a death as well, and heal up the party for free. As said above, healing kits are really not that expensive, if you have a bit of investment in Heal you can heal just as well (and faster) than a FS, at a trifling cost.

The thing is, outside of haste/ethereal visage all of their buffs are long lasting and easy to get from other classes/potions/wands - haste has several ways to get permanently as well. So Ethereal visage is the big problem for about 5 levels (14-19 when you start running into +3 weapons commonly). But one could argue (as being done in another thread) that Epic Dragon Knight trivializes the epic levels, etc. Every class has an area where they're a bit more powerful, and an area where they are less powerful. Favoured Souls happens to be the mid to high teens, druids happens to be late epics, etc.

The overall point is that the class adds flavour and outside of a 5 level window isn't any more powerful than what other classes bring to the table. The nature of a supportive class is that they do make their parties better, but if that is a problem then why can Healers 'effectively' make their party unkillable with overheal, or wizards have infinite acid arrow for high damage, or bards be able to give the effective equivalent (between debuff foes with curse song and buff with bard song) of 7 AC and 7 AB?

[Astral]

I don't know how to do it without repeating what was already said many times. In practice, the FS out-classes all spellcasters and all tanks when it comes to safe grinding with minimal risk, in places that you otherwise wouldn't be in lvl range to go, which makes you lvl up to 30 (and all your party) in a ridiculous pace. I feel like you two slightly refuse to accept what we, people who played FS, try to explain over and over again. infi-ghostly visage IS a deal breaker, perma mass haste IS a deal breaker, not having to rest when all bard spells accessible for 16 cha investment IS a deal breaker. I could go on. Many deal breakers.

[Ambigue]

The part of this argument that baffles me is the position that "Free, infinite X that you can summon from the ether on demand" is equivalent to "affordable, widely available X that you can put a limited amount of in your inventory."

They are not equivalent. Being able to infinitely summon free gasoline into your gas tank on a whim is OBJECTIVELY BETTER THAN buying a lot of cheap gas and storing it in your back seat. That's why the favored soul was very broken at lower levels, even if it's on-paper power at level 30 didn't seem too bad.

"Well, a PRIEST can also resurrect the entire party!" isn't actually a valid point because it doesn't address the primary problem. Priests run out of resurrection spells. Resurrection scrolls are expensive and come with a high piety cost. The priest can rest, sure, which slows the party down and forces the priest to pick which one of his/her/whatevs limited spells slots are going to be devoted to that spell. There's always a kind of accountancy involved.

FS? Just spam revives all day every day without end.

It's not the same. It's not equivalent.

[Griefmaker]

I still think it is funny how many people complained about FS and weavemasters being weak and "traps", only to have everyone come full circle and complain about them being too powerful.

[Astral]

I still think it is funny how many people complained about FS and weavemasters being weak and "traps", only to have everyone come full circle and complain about them being too powerful.

tbh FS sucks in pvp. Some people realized that when they got to lvl 20 and called it "trap". by the time you're like 20 fs /4 fighter or something like that, you already wish you were bard from power point of view (of course it's not really a trap from pve and RP point of view) but the pve is the reason the path was removed as far as I know.