True Flame Harper Build

[Straydog]

Okay guys, I promise I'll stop making threads after this. Here is what I've come up with.

Race: Wild Elf
Class: Sorcerer 25/Harper Mage 5

Abilities:
Str 13
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 19 (26)

EDIT: Now thinking a better stat spread would be
Str 11
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 8
Cha 19

I get toughness from wild elf, so that helps to offset the loss of Con. Str 13 was pretty much because I had extra points but not enough for anything major, so I put it in that for carrying capacity. This would get me enough skill points to max discipline and have some left over.

Feats
1: Toughness (wild elf), SF Evocation
3: GSF Evocation
6: Empower Spell
9: Still Spell
12: Quicken Spell
15: Alertness
18: Iron Will

I am shaky on how epic feats and bonus feats work, but I know I will get auto quicken I and II from Harper Mage. I'm not sure how many feats I have to play with or what order I should take sorc/harper levels in in order to get the ones I want, but from what I have read in other threads, auto still I, II and III may be worth it to wear plate armor, I'd like to grab Hellball, and ESF Discipline may or may not be a requirement. Will I even have enough skill points to max discipline? By my calculations

142 skill points total

Harper Prereqs (38 skillpoints)
Spellcraft 30 (68)
Tumble 30 (98)
Concentration 33 (127)

15 skill points left. Do I not max discipline? Maybe I settle for 20 in tumble? Max concentration seems like a must. Is this what I get for not being a human?

Character is Chaotic Good and will not be taking paladin. Anyone have suggestions?

[BobTheSkull]

As a Harper so you need bluff? Stealth?

You need not, and probably shouldn't post it here, but have you considered your RP aims and direction for Harper? What is it that your character will do to aid the Harper's? How will you accomplish this?

As to skills, mechanically you have human or sun elf that provide bonus to skills. Human passively, sun elf to +2 int.

For Harper also, when you take it makes a difference. More feat options in epic levels for bonus feat at 1 and 5.

Lastly you could consider a dip. Harpers mage gives you 1/1 CL so no loss in spell pen but a 3 class dip into a class with the required prerequisite skills will save some skill points

[Straydog]

Yes, I have considered the RP aspects of being a Harper. I was originally planning to make a different Harper character, but was not having as much fun RPing him. I won't go in depth about my specific RP aspirations for my character, or my character's personality, but I don't think he will have trouble getting their attention. Bluff would fit quite well with my RP, and I think I will have the points left over with the alternate statline I proposed.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Harper scouts come with light armor proficiency. In order to wear plate with your current setup you would need to spend two epic feats after Harper level 1 for medium and heavy proficiency, before taking auto still.

I would drop still spell for maximize as a result, and focus on getting to auto quicken 3 instead so you can cast two spells per round without chugging a haste potion.

[Straydog]

So defensively should I just rely on being in a group and obliterating someone before they can touch me? I was definitely planning on going for auto quicken 3.

Edit: I see some people suggesting that fighter 4 may be worth it, going for EDR in the epic levels, would something like Sorc 21/Harper Mage 5/Fighter 4 be feasible? I would still be CL26, that would get me heavy armor and shield proficiency and I could pick up armor skin or EDR?

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Edr requires 21 constitution.

Typically you either build for durability or max dc/kill potential. You've weighed Charisma in your build, so you're going to want to go with the obliterate approach.

You COULD still go the heavy armor route, but you'd give up some epic casing potential, and meteor swarm scales to level 30 here.

Playing a charisma true flame is an exercise in tactics- in pve when you're doing it right things should be dying as they run at you, partially BECAUSE they're running at you and your persistent aoes.

In pvp, your discipline will matter more than your ac. Your goal is disable->kill, or instant-death nuke combo. You don't need to not get hit for that. You just need to stay on your feet and not die to a scythe or axe crit.

[Straydog]

If I go for the excessive charisma build, with my spell foci will my save DCs be high enough for disables to get through saves? And what disables are we talking? Bigby's Crushing Hand?

EDIT: Let me phrase it like this, how much charisma do I need for my spells to have high enough DCs to work reliably? And how much con do I need to have enough time to attempt that?

Is something like this for idiots? I know it misses fighter 4 and sor 23 in the epic feats, but the feats seem to work out. There is an open Harper Bonus Feat.

Human

Str: 11
Dex: 8
Con: 17 (22)
Wis: 8
Int: 14
Cha: 19 (20)

01: Sor1: SF(Evo), Toughness
02: Sor2
03: Sor3: GSF(Evo)
04: Sor4: CON+1 (18)
05: Sor5
06: Sor6: Empower
07: Sor7
08: Sor8: CON+1 (19)
09: Sor9: Quicken
10: Sor10
11: Sor11
12: Sor12: Maximize, CON+1(20)
13: Sor13
14: Sor14
15: Sor15: Alertness
16: Sor16
17: Sor17
18: Sor18: Iron Will
19: Sor19
20: Sor20: CON+1(21)
21: Ftr1: EDR I, EDR II
22: Ftr2: EDR III
23: Ftr3
24: HrM1 ESF: Evocation, (Auto Quicken I, Harper Knowledge, ESF: Discipline, CON+1(22)
25: Hrm2
26: Hrm3
27: Sorc21: Hellball
28: Hrm4, CHA+1(20)
29: Hrm5: (Auto Quicken II, Eschew Materials, {Some bonus feat})
30: Sor22: Auto Quicken III

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

That build will work, but a few things to watch out for in no particular order -

1: You'll have 26 caster levels. That's fine, except all of your damage is magic damage. Level 30 clerics/druids provide 42 SR for themselves and their allies - mostly only relevant in PvP, but there are some epic level druid monsters in PvE, as well. Needing a 16 or better is rough - and you can't utilize breaches or disjunctions under your own power.

2: You want to wear plate and tower shield, but you're going to have 11 strength- you will want to secure a reliable source of potions, or dump a ton of gold on hundreds of them as quick as you can. You're a true flame, so cast a maximized spell before you drink them to get the full +5.

3: In getting EDR III, you aren't leaving yourself enough feats to get still spell or auto-still spell - so when you put your plate and tower shield on, you won't be casting. You can mitigate this by still spell casting everything manually, but your harper scout bonus feat that you have left-over can't be used to take still spell, and you won't be able to utilize your empower or maximize feats while doing it. If you go this route, I'd consider dropping both empower and maximize spell for still spell and spell penetration.

4: You don't have Greater Ruin. If you plan to PvP at all, you're going to want it, since your entire damage kit is based around ESF: Evocation.


This is the build I'm using for my true flame- although I haven't modified this to accomodate the fact that Harper Mages now get AQ II for free as well- I'll wind up using the extra feat for epic skill focus: Discipline.

Sorc1- SF: Evo
3- GSF: Evo
6- Empower Spell
9- Maximize Spell
12- Alertness
15- Iron Will
18- Quicken Spell
21-23- Harper Mage: ESF: EVO Great Cha I, Skill Focus: Spellcraft, Auto-Quicken Spell I
24-27: Sorc: Greater Ruin, AutoQuicken II, AutoQuicken III
28-29 Harper Mage Eschew Materials Great Char II
30 Sorc - Hellball

Starting stats:
10 STR
8 DEX
10 CON
9 WIS
16 INT(18 post racial- sun elf)
17 CHA (+2 Gift for 19) +7 from level ups +2 great charisma = final cha of 28.

RE your question about DCs and disables, there are some builds out there (Paladins/Blackguards/Monks) that have great saves in everything. You're going to want to attempt to outright obliterate them with hard damage.

A base CHA of 28 will get you to 40 with gear for +15DCs, ESF Evo is another 6, and a base 10 means your level 0 spells start at DC 31, all the way up to 40 at 9th level spells.

You have a plethora of disabling options as a true-flame; arguably, True Flames are the best disablers in the game (I'd give that title to druids in Vanilla for their ability to stack Storm of Vengeance with Stonehold with Vine Mine with Spike Growth with Entangle, but I'm giving it to true flames because they can target every single save in an unlimited capacity).

9th level: Crushing hand, DC 40 reflex. Damage and bind - against most targets that are hit, cast and forget.
8th level: Incendiary cloud- no-save blind on enemies inside the cloud; Clenched Fist ; If spell not resisted, DC 39 Fort save vs. stun each round; Sunburst; DC 39 reflex vs permanent blind.
7th level: Thunderclap- Will vs. Stun, Reflex vs. Prone, DC 38, NOT AFFECTED BY SR; Grasping Hand- Reflex vs Held, DC 38
6th Level: Forceful Hand- Reflex DC37, then a bull-rush check for a knockdown effect that lasts long enough to end any fight.
3rd: Gust of Wind- Fort Save DC 34 vs a 3-round knockdown ignores freedom wards and mind-resist wards.
2nd Level: Cloud of Bewilderment- DC 33 Fort save vs. blind and stun- mind immunity will prevent the stun, but not the blind.

In my experience, hitting someone with a hand spell provokes a -pray response. Be ready to double-cast, or if they're low on Fort, use Clenched Fist- they can pray out of the first stun, but next round they'll get hit again.

[Straydog]

Thank you so much for all your help. I believe I have a good idea of what I'm going to do now. You're a lifesaver!