Rogue: thief/infiltrator archetype

[Straydog]

Hey, so I'm thinking of playing a rogue 24 because I really like the rogue alterations on this server, but I don't know a lot about what works at high level, so I have some questions about skill allocation. Aside from tumble, discipline and UMD being mandatory, what else should I consider?

I'd like to fit in the following skills:
Bluff
Open lock
Disable device (and Search)
Pick Pocket
Hide (and Move Silently)

This is to play into the thief role. I'd like to play a character that is capable of going wherever he wants to go and getting whatever he needs to get for whatever RP shenanigans he gets involved in. I'm wondering about the following things:

Are player spot and listens typically high? Are monster spot and listens typically high? Could Move Silently possibly go not heavily invested in because spot may be more prevalent? How heavily should one invest in pick pocket to use it reliably, as I believe it is opposed by Spot? Is having maxed spot important?

Also, is Set Trap really useful in PvP and should I be investing in Craft Trap as well? I'd like to be sort of an underhanded fighter, though if I had to sacrifice something I was thinking it would be this. The special rogue tools and UMD stuff seems like it would be enough gadgetry.

Basically, I'm wondering which skills are all or nothing, which skills can be used reliably with less of an investment and which skills are not worth investing in at all.

[Berried]

Oh gosh, okay, you should definitely seek a second opinion because I am no means an expert of builds&mechanics, but I'll try to help you out here.

• Max discipline and get the Epic Skill Focus: Discipline feat

• 18 UMD should be all you need for most items (but you need 30 UMD for the Dead Man's Cross, unless you're also an assassin)

• I think you need at least 30 tumble for epic dodge? If you plan on getting epic dodge? Someone fact check me on this.

Are player spot and listens typically high? Are monster spot and listens typically high?

• 60 hide/ms will get you past most monsters and some players. 100 hide/ms will get you past most players.

Could Move Silently possibly go not heavily invested in because spot may be more prevalent?

• No, you'll need to max both and a full set of hide/ms gear

How heavily should one invest in pick pocket to use it reliably, as I believe it is opposed by Spot?

• Max it

Is having maxed spot important?

• Oof, I'm not sure? Can someone else field this?

Also, is Set Trap really useful in PvP

• High-skill players have found clever uses for epic traps (specifically electrical), but they're typically neglected. Traps are usually only useful in specific situations. They're still fun to experiment with though!

should I be investing in Craft Trap as well?

• No, that's useless. Trust me, I wish it wasn't.

Additionally:

• Max bluff + a Trickery and Deceit deity + 28 bluff from gear + charisma bonuses on gear + charisma buffs + base charisma will give you a disguise that will hold up against most players BUT people are going to make repeat checks every few minutes so don't like... Linger.

• Lock DC on most quarters is 127 so you definitely want to max open lock.

And I don't mean to derail but with regards to underhanded fighting... Be very, very mindful of the pvp rules, theft rules, and trap placement rules. I honestly don't recommend stealing from anyone without their explicit ooc consent beforehand.

Like... If you're thinking you're going to be able to leave a trap somewhere you know your enemy is going to walk over it, and then go into hiding and wait for them to step on it before you leap out of the shadows and attack: That's a rulebreak.

If you're thinking you're going to be able to able to work as a spy by sneaking into a target's home and taking journals off of their bookshelf to sell to their enemies: That's a rulebreak.

If you're thinking you can pickpocket someone, get caught, successfully defend yourself, and take the gold off their corpse: That's a rulebreak.

I'm sure there are plenty of other people with better advice, but I hope this was helpful.

[Straydog]

I'm familiar with the PvP rules, I'm not interested in griefing people or attacking them unaware, moreso in spying, stealing items of RP importance (making a contract with someone to acquire it,) or breaking into someone's quarters to check if they have something in their possession (or for RP reasons.)

As for using traps, I was mostly thinking I would throw down a smoke bomb and stealth away into an obvious escape route and put traps around the corners if I even bothered using it.

Why is sneaking into someone's quarters to steal a journal a rulebreak? That seems like a perfect reason to steal something to me. It's fully RP oriented and has nothing to do with setting their character progress back. Can you clarify why this is against the rules/which rule it violates?

I think I understand pickpocketing, killing them and stealing from their corpse though. That would be two attempts to steal from them in 24 hours?

[CosmicOrderV]

Sneaking into someone's quarter to steal something is not--is not-- a rule break. You just can't instigate a hostile action against the same character more than once in a 24 hour period, and when stealing something, you cannot steal more than one item. You don't need to out yourself as the thief, nor get permission. Just gotta follow the rules.

So you're spot on about the pick-pocket and killing bit. That would be two hostile actions. Technically shouldn't do that. Of course, if they try to attack you and you win, all's fair in love and war.

This being said...

Don't have your hopes high for the Smoke Bomb. It doesn't break Line of Sight, so while it does offer a concealment bonus and bonus Hide while within the area, without HiPS you can't actually use it to immediately stealth. Still gotta break line of sight, like normal, some how.

My personal suggestion would be to play 25 rogue, 5 ranger. All the rogue goodies, 4 attacks per round, discipline, and you can read tracks while not leaving your own. This last bit is very useful for a thief, as seeing tracks in the front of your house when you haven't gone inside, can be pretty damning. Especially if the owner of the abode is a tracker themself. Just makes sense to cover your tracks, as a thief, literally. Only way to do that is ranger levels, or 10 assassin levels. Obviously Ranger is the better pick for you, since you want a lot of Rogue levels.

Like Berried said, 70 stealth gets you past most of the content on the server. 100 stealth gets you past 99% of its player-characters. The ones to watch out for are WIS based detectors, as they'll be the ones who can reliably detect you. If you think they have spot, just avoid Line of Sight. If you think they have Listen, just don't stand within 20 meters.

[Might-N-Magic]

Bluff
Open lock
Disable device (and Search)
Pick Pocket
Hide (and Move Silently)

Max Bluff for -Disguise.
Max Hide/MS for best chance to sneak about.
Just about everybody maxes Spot since it is a ridiculous silver bullet for too many checks, so if Pick Pocket means something to you, max that.
Max Search. Traps can have just about any DC here and Search improves your chance to find EXTRA loot.
As for Open Lock and Disable Device, put 1 point into them now - then raise them later once you find out what numbers you need to hit for what you like to do.

Most dungeoneering can be done with 1 Open Lock and Disable Trap. Other things require higher numbers...