Classic Elf Bard

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Gonagul
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Classic Elf Bard

Post by Gonagul » Thu May 23, 2019 11:46 pm

I've always wanted to play a bard of classic look and feel, and am thinking about doing so down the line. I've seen them depicted, and envision them, in light armor, no shield, staying out of combat, playing some sort of lute or flute, and tossing the occasional spell-- mostly just buffing and de-buffing when it comes to combat.

Is there a way to do this on Arelith? I imagine it would be nearly 100% party-play. I would want to play Elf because I enjoy Myon, and playing elves atm. Pure Bard would be preferable, but would a Monk dip be out of the question viability-wise (if it's even possible)? Mechanically it'd allow WIS buffs to also increase AC. RP-wise, the char could be some sort of Seldarine cantor that could lead other elves in prayer through music, and during combat could inspire, singing of the deeds of the Seldarine.

I guess it's silly, but it's a game-- and I just love the old-school depiction. Thanks

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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri May 24, 2019 1:56 am

Its totally viable and has been done (even if not a top tier build). If you are good aligned, id look up master Harper on arelith wiki. Will allow you to have unlimited use of bard song and curse song making you a wonderdul party support. Also apparently with all thebdeays, maxed ranks, cha, items etc, it is possible to reach perform 100

Can perform still be used for disguising?

You can be a master disguiser capable of voting in any election (harper) with unlimited powerful Bardic and curse song (which can effect your summons) Lots of skillpoints, extremely hard to dispel with caster level 30.

With your massive lore skill you can understand any language as you infiltrate any soceity with universal vote power.

You will have plenty of skill points allowing you to do thinfs like have good appraise so you can more easily fund whatever faction you want to influence.

And its not like you can not somewhat solo with summon creature spells plus bard song plus curse song. You can use scrolls too if you need stronger summons (hence again why being rich helps). Your song is relevant in almost any composition because non martial classes still have summons that it can help.

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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by CosmicOrderV » Fri May 24, 2019 2:34 am

If I were to use my own words to say the same thing as malcom: this style of bard is not going to be especially fun unless you have regular friends to adventure with, and lots of gold. It's possible, but not ideal. It will rely entirely on having summon-scrolls (because bards can't summon higher than VI), and buffing with your own mix of spells, songs, wands and additional scrolls.
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Braid
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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by Braid » Fri May 24, 2019 3:05 am

I tried this on many occassions and it's pretty fun maxing Perform for Bard Song and spamming Curse Song. You could focus on Enchantment and spam Mind Fog followed by Mind Affecting spells like War Cry.

Instrument making is invaluable so make sure you invest enough points in Carpentry. Having Mass Charm and an extra Mass Haste is very handy as well as the other instrument spells.

Having Transmutation is also pretty cool so you can teleport and make golems.

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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by Astral » Fri May 24, 2019 5:59 am

Harper is a great path but it comes with a certain RP limitation, that you need to RP a harper and that has it's demands. I wouldnt recommend Harper as a default path for all caster bards but it's indeed a great one mechanically speaking. It's also not that easy to get a token for that.

Otherwise just going 30 bard is what you're looking for really. Full party support with long lasting song 30 times, meaning you're never running out of bard song uses no matter ho hard to spam curse song in combat every encounter. I recommend building it with 22 constitution and charisma as your secondary attribute so you can take Epic Damage Reduction III in epic lvls. With lvl 30 bard song active you can take hits and out-heal them with healing kits while wearing a damaging shield like Wounding Whispers. its always been a very solid build, even if not the most optimal. It's objectively the best party support and its a lotta fun to RP too. I personally take 16 int score on this build to have a lot of skill points and play sort of a jack of all trades in that regard. Highly recommended.
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malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri May 24, 2019 12:09 pm

Braid wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:05 am
I tried this on many occassions and it's pretty fun maxing Perform for Bard Song and spamming Curse Song. You could focus on Enchantment and spam Mind Fog followed by Mind Affecting spells like War Cry.

Instrument making is invaluable so make sure you invest enough points in Carpentry. Having Mass Charm and an extra Mass Haste is very handy as well as the other instrument spells.

Having Transmutation is also pretty cool so you can teleport and make golems.
Can a heavy con still have classic bard light armor feel? (You can answer that).

But yes having EDR. Plus wounding whispers could be quite fun.


Its odd. With more players i Actaully find it harder find parties because everybody is successful at being independent. The average old arelith build was so bad that today's meme builds could faceroll them. Partying realky helped the grind with no writs. Writs now make it hsrder to find people doing same writ waiting in town.

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Opustus
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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by Opustus » Fri May 24, 2019 12:21 pm

I'd use Spellthief armor on the high-CON variant to allow spellcasting while armored. You lose some critical points from AC and have to invest some into DEX through gear, but it's way k00ler than jumping out of a metal suit every time you have to cast! We've received rumors of bards gaining a reduction to arcane spell failure, which will allow them to wear some kind of light armors and greensteel without arsing up their spells.

Monk/Bard sounds very flavorful RPwise, but beyond that it's a super awkward fit since the monk isn't needed for a Tumble and Discipline skill dump and WIS is a total bastard to buff up.

Levelling up you're looking to get your hands on an instrument of summon dire tiger as soon as possible! After the tiger loses its felicity, look for shops selling Summon creature IX scrolls, you can buff that baby to dire baby with your O Baby bard song. That's for solo play, mind you, in a party you'll be cherished and loved by all. May your bardiness reign and prosper a thousand years.
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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by Braid » Fri May 24, 2019 2:50 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:09 pm
Braid wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:05 am
I tried this on many occassions and it's pretty fun maxing Perform for Bard Song and spamming Curse Song. You could focus on Enchantment and spam Mind Fog followed by Mind Affecting spells like War Cry.

Instrument making is invaluable so make sure you invest enough points in Carpentry. Having Mass Charm and an extra Mass Haste is very handy as well as the other instrument spells.

Having Transmutation is also pretty cool so you can teleport and make golems.
Can a heavy con still have classic bard light armor feel? (You can answer that).

But yes having EDR. Plus wounding whispers could be quite fun.


Its odd. With more players i Actaully find it harder find parties because everybody is successful at being independent. The average old arelith build was so bad that today's meme builds could faceroll them. Partying realky helped the grind with no writs. Writs now make it hsrder to find people doing same writ waiting in town.
Well back then GS armor and shield had 0% arcane spell failure so it wasn't a huge problem except for some AC you missed out on. I stopped depending on GS armor and shield since the change and went for light-armor builds or Heavy Armor builds that don't use Bard spells during combat and switching clothes ehen I'd rebuff.

I tried doing a High-CON/EDR wounding whispers Bard for fun and it paled in comparison to higher leveled biteback spells from other classes and it doesn't synergize well with Bard's song which is more useful for the AB and AC buff. It was fun spamming heal kits like a proto-biteback barbarian.

I'm not a fan of the writ system but it helps to be able to still progress when life gets busy. I just wish it cut off earlier like at level 11. But this thread isn't about that so I'll keep it at that.

Gonagul
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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by Gonagul » Fri May 24, 2019 3:01 pm

Hell yeah thanks guys, these are all awesome and encouraging replies. Would it be wise to take the Artist feat at lvl 1 to try and eventually hit 100 Perform for the 30 song?

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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by R0GUE » Fri May 24, 2019 3:28 pm

Gonagul wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:01 pm
Hell yeah thanks guys, these are all awesome and encouraging replies. Would it be wise to take the Artist feat at lvl 1 to try and eventually hit 100 Perform for the 30 song?
It's nigh impossible to get to 100 on this server. But 80-85 is an achievable goal.

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Opustus
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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by Opustus » Fri May 24, 2019 6:25 pm

Here's how you reach Perform 100 on Arelith including the latest bracers.

Perform rank 33, SF:Perform, ESF: Perform, CHA modifier 14, Stardom minor gift, Adamantine bracers of persuasion, Blue suede shoes, Golden crown, Ruby amulet, Ten-foot pole, remaining 5 item slots enchanted with +2 Perform
(100=33+3+10+14+6+6+5+3+5+5+10)

A sensible person stops at Perform 85 though, like R0GUE said. The reason for this is that the difference between Perform85 and 100 bard song is +3 skill points, +6 HP, +1 AC; the +16 skills from Bard song buffs up your Curse song to 100 for the full effect.

85 is achievable in a number of ways, but ideally you ditch SF:Perform. If you want to cheese about it, you can do a lot of gear switching for the benefits of the strongest songs -and- the bestest gear, but you can pull it off without too much a hassle with less gear switching without gimping too hard; it's essentially a matter of enchanting slots used for Perform skill in equipment in favour of stuff like Spellcraft, Taunt, Discipline etc. but you already have skill points up the arse.
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Gonagul
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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by Gonagul » Sat May 25, 2019 3:21 pm

I'm terrible at figuring out how to build a character, so I checked out the cookie-cutters. How might a modified cookie-cutter Warlock build work for Pure Bard? Much worse summons, but might be able to scrape by solo on weak mobs, while looking to mainly be a party player.

Moon Elf
Str: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 18 (Gift)
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 16 (Gift)

Bard(1): Blind Fight
Bard(2)
Bard(3): SF: Conjuration
Bard(4): Con+1, (Con=19)
Bard(5)
Bard(6): GSF: Conjuration
Bard(7)
Bard(8): Con+1, (Con=20)
Bard(9): Curse Song
Bard(10)
Bard(11)
Bard(12): Toughness, Con+1, (Con=21)
Bard(13)
Bard(14)
Bard(15): SF: Transmutation
Bard(16): Cha+1, (Cha=17)
Bard(17)
Bard(18): GSF: Transmutation
Bard(19)
Bard(20): Cha+1, (Cha=18)
Bard(21): EDR I
Bard(22)
Bard(23): Lasting Inspiration
Bard(24): EDR II, Cha+1, (Cha=19)
Bard(25)
Bard(26): ESF: Perform
Bard(27): EDR III
Bard(28): Cha+1, (Cha=20)
Bard(29): ESF: Transmutation
Bard(30): ESF: Discipline

Is this potentially viable (and possible)? I'm trying to make him resilient, but also have a great song and decent spellcasting.

Additionally, a question about skills-- how much UMD is needed for a Bard? I'm trying to split between:

Discipline
Spellcraft
Tumble
Perform
UMD
Taunt
Concentration
Heal

I Imagine I'd need to try and max Discipline, Spellcraft, Taunt, Perform, and Concentration (and preferably Heal), while also getting Tumble to 30. Doesn't seem possible at 14 Int, so which would be best to prioritize maxing and which can take cuts?

Also the idea of Enchantment instead of Transmutation is a very tempting playstyle that I've been thinking about-- though the utility of teleportation looks awesome.

Thanks for reading and to any replies.

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Ork
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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by Ork » Sat May 25, 2019 5:43 pm

A heads up, bards won't be able to take ESF since they never cast L9 spells. I'd suggest dropping SF & GSF: Conj for expertise and imp. expertise.

Gonagul
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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by Gonagul » Sat May 25, 2019 11:50 pm

Ork wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 5:43 pm
A heads up, bards won't be able to take ESF since they never cast L9 spells. I'd suggest dropping SF & GSF: Conj for expertise and imp. expertise.
Good catch, I would've been borked. Also good calls on the Expertise/IE-- I suppose I won't need extra beefy summons if I'm soloing weenies.

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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by Gonagul » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:49 pm

Question about how PrC feats are applied--

If I ever made this character and applied for and was awarded a Harper pin, with the intent on taking 5 levels of Master Harper at epic levels and took Curse Song and Lasting Inspiration for the Harper bonus feats--

Would the feat progression look like this?

Bard(1)
Bard(2)
Bard(3): Feat
Bard(4)
Bard(5)
Bard(6): Feat
Bard(7)
Bard(8)
Bard(9): Feat
Bard(10)
Bard(11)
Bard(12): Feat
Bard(13)
Bard(14)
Bard(15): Feat
Bard(16)
Bard(17)
Bard(18): Feat
Bard(19)
Bard(20)
Master Harper(1): Feat, Harper Knowledge, Curse Song, SF: Perform
Master Harper(2)
Master Harper(3): Bonus Feat, SF: Lore
Master Harper(4): Feat, ESF: Lore
Master Harper(5): Lasting Inspiration, ESF: Perform
Bard(21): Bonus Feat
Bard(22): Feat
Bard(23)
Bard(24): Bonus Feat
Bard(25): Feat

Is this correct? Or are the Harper Bonus Feats just supposed to replace what would have been your due bonus feats for epic character? Thanks

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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by R0GUE » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:08 pm

Gonagul wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:49 pm
Question about how PrC feats are applied--

If I ever made this character and applied for and was awarded a Harper pin, with the intent on taking 5 levels of Master Harper at epic levels and took Curse Song and Lasting Inspiration for the Harper bonus feats--

Would the feat progression look like this?

Bard(1)
Bard(2)
Bard(3): Feat
Bard(4)
Bard(5)
Bard(6): Feat
Bard(7)
Bard(8)
Bard(9): Feat
Bard(10)
Bard(11)
Bard(12): Feat
Bard(13)
Bard(14)
Bard(15): Feat
Bard(16)
Bard(17)
Bard(18): Feat
Bard(19)
Bard(20)
Master Harper(1): Feat, Harper Knowledge, Curse Song, SF: Perform
Master Harper(2)
Master Harper(3): Bonus Feat, SF: Lore
Master Harper(4): Feat, ESF: Lore
Master Harper(5): Lasting Inspiration, ESF: Perform
Bard(21): Bonus Feat
Bard(22): Feat
Bard(23)
Bard(24): Bonus Feat
Bard(25): Feat

Is this correct? Or are the Harper Bonus Feats just supposed to replace what would have been your due bonus feats for epic character? Thanks
A quick note. With Master Harper you don't really NEED Lasting Inspiration because you get infinite uses of Bard Song a day. It might actually behoove you to NOT take it if your Perform is high enough to do significant damage with Curse Song, because you can spam it for more damage to enemies. You could instead use your feat on ESF: Discipline or something.

Also, you don't get bonus feats at Bard(21)/Bard(24), the first Epic Bard bonus feat is at Bard(23) and that's all you'll get.

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Opustus
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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by Opustus » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:20 pm

Harper gets bonus feats on their class level at 1 and 5, so if you take level 1 pre-epic, you get to choose out of the pre-epic feat list. If you take 1 and 5 epic, you choose both from the epic feat list.

Basically, if you're very short on pre-epic feats, you can go Bard16/Harper4 pre-epic and choose Curse song on Harper1. This moves up your 5th Harper level for infinite bard songs as well as nets you a wee bit better saves.

If you have enough pre-epic feats, you may take all Harper levels epic for an extra epic feat.

Level progression for feats is easiest to think about first level and every three levels. So 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27, 30. You always get 7 pre-epic feats and 4 epic feats. With bard, bonus epic feats are on bard levels 23, 26, 29. With Harper, bonus feats are on Harper levels 1 and 5. Since your character would be Bard25/Harper5, this would mean either 8 pre-epic feats and 5 epic feats (with Harper4 pre-epic) or 7 pre-epic feats and 6 epic feats (with all Harper levels taken in epic).

I've highlighted the errors in your original list:

Bard(1)
Bard(2)
Bard(3): Feat
Bard(4)
Bard(5)
Bard(6): Feat
Bard(7)
Bard(8)
Bard(9): Feat
Bard(10)
Bard(11)
Bard(12): Feat
Bard(13)
Bard(14)
Bard(15): Feat
Bard(16)
Bard(17)
Bard(18): Feat
Bard(19)
Bard(20)
Master Harper(1): Feat, Harper Knowledge, Curse Song, SF: Perform
Master Harper(2)
Master Harper(3): Bonus Feat, SF: Lore
Master Harper(4): Feat, ESF: Lore
Master Harper(5): Lasting Inspiration, ESF: Perform
Bard(21): Bonus Feat
Bard(22): Feat
Bard(23) Bard level 23 epic bonus feat
Bard(24): Bonus Feat
Bard(25): Feat
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Gonagul
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Re: Classic Elf Bard

Post by Gonagul » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:30 am

That clears up a lot, thank you both!

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