Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

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BoltNRun
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Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by BoltNRun » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:48 pm

Hey!

I know I had questions about this in another topic, but I've been giving a lot more thought to it and I was wondering about a build for it.

My idea is as the title says; a wood or wild elf ranger who is primarily melee, but can fall back on ranged or have it as an alternative if needed. His main weapon or melee set would be a spear and shield. I know I can go dual wield but I want something a bit hardier and I believe i can still get pretty tanky as a melee ranger right? The ranged option I am thinking about would be throwing axes. Mainly because if i am going to be STR, then why not capitalize on the infinite mighty that throwing weapons get.

i did consider wood elf with the longbow focus they get, but the best longbow is only +4 mighty, I feel like I'd be missing out on some damage possibly? Or am I wrong in that train of thought?

Since I am not going dual-wielding, I was told that the Archer path of ranger would fit my concept so much better? Since it would give me feats that at least help out my ranged back up option.

What I am curious about is how some of the stats will be, AB and AC wise? Will I be able to hold my own in PvE or PvP? Is this build idea decent? I would love some discussion and feed back on this. If anyone could help me with a build plan that'd be cool too! I'm in no rush as i currently love my main character but I have been thinking on new things lol.

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Jagel
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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by Jagel » Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:34 pm

A bow would work best as it will boost your ab and being a str-based ranger, your ranged ab will already suffer. You will struggle to hit relevant targets with throwing axes.

Also weight

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BoltNRun
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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by BoltNRun » Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:59 am

Oh? Well there is a pretty nice bow that I can get that does have some good stats

So it seems wood elf may be the way to go and path of the archer

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Drowble Oh Seven
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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:28 am

That's how I'd do it. The strength bonus is handy, and it's a little easier on your feats - though; as a ranger-heavy build, you should be pretty comfy featwise. I also suspect you'll be more able to find buyers for damask arrows than you will throwing weapons, which'll be a nice way to earn a little bit of coin.

You won't be using them against targets that you desperately want to kill (such as in PvP), since you'll be somewhere in the ballpark of 14 AB down on the ranged weapons, but it's a nice bit of flavour and the damage, when you hit, will be respectable enough. Unfortunately if you want to be able to do melee and ranged, you pretty much have to be dex-based, and even then it's not an ideal set of compromises to be making since going DEX tends to hurt your damage in melee (unless you go for sneak attacks; which then limits the range at which you can make effective use of your ranged weapons, and so on. It's a rabbit hole of suck.)

Also, dip bard for spellcraft, since you get evasion for free on a ranger anyway. 27/3 Ranger/Bard is my preference, since you can comfortably make full use of the ranger spellbook, but either 21/6/3 or 23/4/3 Ranger/Fighter/Bard (if you want to keep Animal Empathy'd companions functioning) are perfectly serviceable (and are superior damage-wise, though lose a point of blade thirst AB).

I'd go something like the plan below (this is a longsword variant, so just swap out for spear). Apologies for the terrible image quality.

Image

You end up with something like 51AB against favoured enemies, which is respectable.

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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by Astral » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:34 am

Drowble Oh Seven wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:28 am
Build
I've never seen str based sword-and-board kind of ranger but if someone goes for that, go spear for Elder Dream.
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Drowble Oh Seven
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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:51 am

It's actually one of those builds that doesn't benefit that much from elder dream / moonblade - since blade thirst at that level lets you turn anything into a +5 weapon. You're often better off using something with cool unique properties from the loot matrix or just enchanting something to be:

Keen
+1 Fortitude (Fort/Will/Reflex saves don't count for the purposes of lesser runes, so it just makes it that bit easier to make)
1d4 Massive Criticals
--> Apply Lesser Blade Rune
+4 Permanent Essence
+1d4 Elemental Damage (Enchanted)

That said, elder dream is super cool, and if I was going to use it, I'd probably use it in a build like this. Or some odd wild elf/rogue abomination.

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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by Astral » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:05 pm

Forgot blade thirst. Yeah I guess you're right. I'd go find as many Blade of Elements andtry to 5% Keen.
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BoltNRun
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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by BoltNRun » Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:52 pm

That build does look good but I am thinking of favoring the 21/6/3 version. Having the fighter levels for epic weapon spec and such would fit my concept rather well too.

I would be okay with only having a good Blade Thirst since elder dream is my goal lol. Adding blade thirst to elder dream just sounds devastating too!

Could you help me with that version, drowbie? Or anyone who wishes to lol. I guess it would be like the cookie cutter but I am unsure how to go about it. I'm scared that if I try to just switch a few things I'd mess it up? Unless it's actually that easy? Since the cookie cutter one is the human one and one of the first feats is exotic prof, which I do not need.

What will my AC be you think? Fully buffed without haste and haste or IE? I know the 21/6/3 version will have some pretty nice damage as well

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BoltNRun
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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by BoltNRun » Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:58 pm

Also, stat wise, would it be possible to have at least every stat be a 10? I know that the CHA is 8 but if I moved 2 points of CON to it could that work? RP reasons but if it's hurt the build too much that's okay

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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by Astral » Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:11 pm

Why not go for 21 ranger 6 monk 3 rogue as dex based with quarterstaff? You get a lot of attacks and a lot damage on favoured enemies and you get some movement speed, a lot of ac and can switch to a bow sometimes. It's objectively better than all str based rangers at the moment.
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BoltNRun
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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by BoltNRun » Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:17 pm

I mean that does sound appealing, but I like the concept of spear and shield as well. I still want to see what my possibilities are with a strength build ranger

I'd definitely be open to seeing a build like that too though. Going around whacking people with a stick definitely sounds fun too

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Drowble Oh Seven
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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:23 pm

Hi Bolt,

If you're after 21/6/3, than the cookie cutter build's the way to go. I'd pull those points for CHA from DEX rather than CON, though. As long as you wind up with 10 base DEX (like the cookie cutter build does) you'll be happy. I go with 12 on the elf builds, because you've got the spare points and they might as well go somewhere vaguely helpful, but you can reach the 18 you need to take full advantage of ranger leathers with base 10 quite happily.

Just drop Exotic Proficiency from the cookie cutter build and proceed as normal. Since you don't get the human bonus feat, the build ends up exactly the same; minus that feat. Don't bother investing skill points in Animal Empathy since you'll eventually stop having majority ranger levels, and you'll no longer be able to turn animals into permanent companions.

If you're feeling bold and want to free up feats, you could even forego knockdown and rely on tracking down a ring of the ram, which would let you take toughness and one other thing. I'm fond of taking advantage of the ranger FE enemy feats to grab GSF: Transmutation, just because teleport is super convenient. It's not the mechanically optimal choice, but it does make buffing that little bit easier. You could also use it to pick up a throwing weapon focus; if you wanted to be able to churn out even more ranged ammunition.

I'm a bit wonky on my AC calculations, so someone else might chime in and correct me, but some back of the envelope stuff puts you at about 41AC without getting heavily warded. That's:

10 Base
+4 DEX [18 DEX]
+9 Ranger Leathers
+1 Fighter Bonus AC
+2 Armour Skin
+6 Tumble AC
+3 Adamantine Helmet
+6 Adamantine Tower Shield
+1 Dodge AC (Enchanted Boots)
+4 Barkskin (From Ranger Leathers)
= 46
Last edited by Drowble Oh Seven on Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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BoltNRun
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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by BoltNRun » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:59 am

If I had the runic studded ranger armor, I get a +6 to my armor bonus? So wouldn't I be at 47 without full wards?

Also, if I were to go DEX ranger, what are some of the bonuses? I know my AC would be high as hell too

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Drowble Oh Seven
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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:35 am

You're right; sorry. It should be 46 AC, by my count. I goofed and was looking at the ranger's vestment instead. Updated the post.

I can't recommend DEX rangers, on the back of the levelling experience for DEX-meleers without an additional source of damage being comparable to pulling out your own eyeballs and eating them. If you've got buddies to help you through to the epics, it might be more manageable (or if you just use a bow and pretend to be an archer for a good long while). I suspect Astral's build of 21 Ranger / 6 Monk / 3 Rogue would be pretty solid once it got the levels behind it, but don't have the numbers to hand. You would have to forego your spear, since it's not a finessable weapon.

For reference, going DEX on the cookie cutter build would end up with an AC of 51. Astral's build would have a point extra without buffs, courtesy of the monk wisdom bonus (which you could bump up to five points with potions, skeens, and scrolls).

10 Base
+14 DEX [38 DEX]
+4 Ranger Vestment
+1 Fighter Bonus AC
+2 Armour Skin
+6 Tumble AC
+3 Adamantine Helmet
+6 Adamantine Tower Shield
+1 Dodge AC (Enchanted Boots)
+4 Barkskin (From Ranger's Vestment)
= 51

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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by Astral » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:23 pm

There's also +3 ac from rangers lvls if you use two-sided weapon, and you will use quarterstaff idealy.
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BoltNRun
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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by BoltNRun » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:47 pm

Drowbie,

Thanks for all the help man. I'm still wanting the STR Ranger, but I do have a question about the main difference between the 27/3 version you posted, and then the cookie cutter, as well as the 23/4/3 you also talked about.

Can you tell me about the animal companion? i know that the build with more ranger levels will be stronger, but is there like any difference between the strength of them on the cookie cutter and the 23/4/3 version? You also said to not worry about animal empathy? I'm guessing since I will only be able to get like 25 SP in it that it wouldn't be enough in the end?

As for STATS, in the 27/3 build you posted, I noticed you had two feats of "GRT STR". 26 STR is the end game stat right?

Also, i can choose a snake for my animal companion? Or is that only for the totem people?

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Drowble Oh Seven
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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:15 pm

No problems!

Animal companions get a level for every ranger level you take, and every three levels (5/8/11, etc) the bonus to hit / damage from greater magic fang increases by 1. A build with 23 ranger levels will have a stronger companion than one with 21; but personally I feel the point if kind-of moot; since the companions aren't really durable enough that you're going to be using them regularly. They're also dumb as bricks, if you've got multiple henchmen/summons out at once.

My ranger uses the bear companion because it's the tankiest, but she still spends a lot of rounds in combat trying to keep it alive when she could really contribute more just by fighting. It shouldn't really be a deal breaker in choosing your level spread. I'll post up what my companion's stats look like at level 27 this evening, just so you've got an idea of what companions end up looking like. In the meantime; the NWN wiki's a reasonable source. The only changes Arelith has made are:
Arelith Updates wrote:ANIMAL COMPANION BONUSES

* Animal companions now have maximized hit points and skill ranks for all known skills
* Epic level animal companions now gain the Epic Skill Focus: Discipline feat
* Animal companions with the Weapon Finesse feat are now granted +1 dexterity / 3 levels and +1 damage / 6 levels
* Animal companions that do NOT have the Weapon Finesse feat are now granted +1 strength / 3 levels and +1 AC / 6 levels
The thing with animal empathy is - Rangers can turn animals they encounter in the world into permanent (until you log) henchmen using animal empathy. The rub is that this only works as long as 3/4 of your levels are ranger levels - which is the case for the 23/4/3, but not the 21/6/3. If you're going the 21/6/3 route you don't get those special benefits and; though the skill is still useable in that case, I feel the points can be better invested elsewhere (which is why I said not to take it).

Animal empathy's kind-of situational and if you don't have it you're unlikely to really feel its absence. That said, there's some fun to be had if you're into playing Arelith Pokemon and have the patience to go and capture creatures before you start your adventuring.

The build I posted also takes the strength gift (and has the advantage of wood elf bonus strength); so ends up with 28 base strength at 30 (which goes to 40 fully buffed). Have a gander at that leftmost stat column on the picture; it should all be in there.

You have to be a totem ranger for a snake. By default you get badger, wolf, brown bear, boar, hawk, panther, giant spider, dire wolf, and dire rat to choose from. That said; there's no real reason not to take a totem and the NPC is fairly easy to access, even at reasonably low levels. You're not going to be using summoning spells on the regular anyway, so the only thing that really changes is the appearance of your companion (ranger stats don't decrease on selecting a totem, unlike druids. It's a purely aesthetic choice).

EDIT: Level 27 Animal Companion (Brown Bear) here. Compare with Kriv's wonderful level 24 data here.

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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by The Kriv » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:28 am

BoltNRun wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:48 pm

My idea is as the title says; a wood or wild elf ranger who is primarily melee, but can fall back on ranged or have it as an alternative if needed. His main weapon or melee set would be a spear and shield....

...Since I am not going dual-wielding, I was told that the Archer path of ranger would fit my concept so much better? Since it would give me feats that at least help out my ranged back up option.
So, as stated... getting 21 levels of Ranger doesn't grant you the animal-companion=henchment perk. This is a HUGE thing. Most folks don't really understand how amazing this is until you get REALLY GOOD at controlling your henchmen with keyboard shortcuts.

If you don't spend actual time training yourself to catch your companion/henchmen before they run off and aggro the hell out of a big group... then forget it, you will be wasting skill points. BUT... if you ~can~ train yourself to properly and reliably control your animals... then OOOOH DAAANG!! this is super useful. Specifically... you can use those big-arse bears as blockers. Not Tanks... Blockers. They obstruct the things that are trying to get to you. They can block pathways and create err.... bear-shields... for you to retreat behind and help control the crowds that you will be facing toe-to-toe in your melee fighting.

BUT... you need to freekin' learn to control them, or they will spell your doom.


Re: Archer Path.

Take it.


If you are not dual-wielding, then you don't care about the feats associated with dual wield. The Ranged Bonus won't apply to your attack, but it will pack a much larger PUNCH in your damage. Also, it will grant you on-demand +3 damage Damask Arrow Bundles which helps inventory space management... and those two things together on your archery will be big at Ranger 24+. Not to mention free CALLED SHOT feat, which works in Melee.

Regarding dip-multi-class.... if you are going to be melee... then you are going to need that Dodge AC granted by Tumble. Whatever you decide to go multi-class wise... that Tumble AC will be very important, and you will need to make it a priority.

That said... you can do 23 levels of Ranger, do a rogue-dip for 3, and take 4 levels of Fighter to gain Weapon Specialize + Epic Weapon Specialize if you take your 4th Fighter Level at 24, 27 or 30 (with proper feat planning)



Animal Empathy Skill... In my lvl 30 ranger... I've maxed animal empathy... AND taken Epic Skill Focus Animal Empathy. This is one reason why in PvP my ranger gets his lunch money taken regularly. I know, it's sad. He is so sub-par, it comfortably snoozes on the flattest part of the low side of the bell curve. But... his animal Acquisition -in combat- is also amazing... and the RP of rescuing other PC's who are tangling with animals.. .pulling those animals off and saving both the PC and the animal... that RP is hella-fun.

oh.. and two words for you.... LEGENDARY SNOW BEAST. (oh wait... three words.... )


so them's my 2 coppers... I don't power-build... I fun-build. And my ranger Build is super fun. weak... but super fun.
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Jagel
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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by Jagel » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:09 am

Late to the party, but drowbie how do you figure 51 ab against fav enemies? I’m getting 44/45

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Drowble Oh Seven
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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:00 am

My numbers were:

20 (Pre-Epic level progression)
+5 (Epic progression)
+15 (40 Strength, when buffed)
+5 (Blade Thirst)
+2 (Bane of Enemies)
+1 (Weapon Focus)
+2 (Epic Weapon Focus)
+1 (Epic Prowess)
--
51

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Jagel
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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by Jagel » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:55 am

Ah thanks. I misread the str and forgot wf stacks with ewf

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Drowble Oh Seven
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Re: Wood/Wild Elf Melee Ranger

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:33 pm

Welcome! As a side note,it'll often be a point higher, since a ranger can cheerfully keep aid up most of the time.

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