Expertise

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solo
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Expertise

Post by solo » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:16 am

Hello,

I noticed that most melee builds that are being recommended in the cookie cutter build guide have Expertise and Improved Expertise. I'm just wondering how often people use that feat, and in what circumstances?

I used to play on another server some years back, and Expertise (along with Blind Fight) was one of those feats that no one took because it was seen as useless. Same goes for Dirty Fighting, Power Attack, and those sort of abilities.

I obediently followed the guide here for my build and took Expertise, but I have yet to even use it, and I'm seriously considering dropping a few levels to get rid of it and replace it with Toughness instead.

How do you use it? Is it a PvP-only feat? Do you guys use often while going through dungeons? I'm honestly at a bit of a loss, but I'm reluctant to rebuild/sacrifice levels without more information.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Expertise

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:28 am

Expertise is your panic button. Expertise is for when everything has gone wrong and you need to spam healkits. 10 more AC will keep you alive much, much better than 30 hp.

Also, I am amazed that some servers consider blind fight useless. Improved Invis is one of the best, if not THE best, defensive buffs in the game. I suppose if your enemy AI wasn't set up to insta-buff the way so many NPC mages on Arelith do, it would be much more PvP focused, but still.
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Sea Shanties
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Re: Expertise

Post by Sea Shanties » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:39 am

Those builds do tend to be for maximum PVP effectiveness at level 30 vs other Arelith level 30s. They're not necessarily ideal builds on other servers with different house rules but they've been obsessed over so much here you'd be wise to use them as a guide especially if you're new.

Improved Expertise really starts to have value (in my opinion) later on. There are a lot of fights PVP and PVE where 10 AC is a lot more valuable than 10 AB. Toughness is good to have too, but if something is hitting you a lot and hitting hard those extra hit points won't save you. I'd be surprised if IE was really useless on any server myself but obviously I don't know what you had going on before.

Blind fight is essential against enemies with concealment including improved invisibility and darkness. You can't skip that either.

solo
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Re: Expertise

Post by solo » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:27 am

I'm not disputing the need for Blind Fight, I understand why that's needed on here.

The server I'm referring to was a bit particular. You were jumped straight to level 40 upon logging in, the gear was ridiculously high with everyone's stats pretty much boosted to the +12 cap, +17 AB enhancements on average on weapons, median AB of melee characters was within the 68-71 range, and AC might have been sitting around 69 on average if I remember correctly. Not to mention that everyone had access to magic gear and scrolls through UMD. The server in question had something of an "everyone is equal" philosophy (...it didn't work...).

As for Expertise, I'm relatively convinced by the reasons given to me above, so I'll scrap the rebuild plans. Thanks for the help.

Vrass
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Re: Expertise

Post by Vrass » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:54 am

I have Imp Exp on my character... gives me 40 ac unbuffed. Almost everyone i have talked to says that is very good for a pure caster build.

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Re: Expertise

Post by Kalopsia » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:18 am

For the sake of completeness, here’s two more reasons to take Expertise:
- Arelith’s PvE content is basically built around it, especially at higher levels. Opponents like Minogons have pretty high AB, but low AC. Without Expertise, you’re taking a lot of damage - with Expertise, you’re much tankier, yet equally able to hit those creatures with your attacks. And that’s just one of many examples out there :)
- The -guard command allows shielding other players from NPC attacks in PvE. Expertise allows tanking more efficiently in parties, making both leveling and high level content in parties much easier.

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Jagel
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Re: Expertise

Post by Jagel » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:26 am

Also at low lvls being able to pop 10 extra AC really increases staying power

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Jack Oat
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Re: Expertise

Post by Jack Oat » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:05 pm

I made a bunch of those builds that use E/IE. Expertise & Improved Expertise, as has been outlined and can be read on the wiki, grant 10 AC for 10 AB. Sometimes in Arelith PvE (especially in later levels/Epics) you don't need the AB to hit, but you do need the AC to survive. Even for lower levels, the ability to -guard your party's Rogue or something that does more damage than you (or needs the protection) and let them do DPS while you focus defense means your grinding runs a lot smoother.

So basically what Kalopsia said, but repeated by me because emphasis.

If you find yourself not using it in PvE, take a moment and review your grinding. Are there points where you take a lot of damage from mobs? Do archers/ranged mobs pelt you with arrows from places you can't reach them, or that it'll take a while to get to? Have you ever died to monsters because you couldn't out-heal the incoming damage? Those are all times that Expertise/Improved Expertise can help sustain you longer and give you the "breathing room" or freedom of maneuver to do what you need to do.

In PvP Expertise/Improved Expertise do much of the same thing. They're a great way to open a fight as a melee character so you can see your opponent's AB and decide whether or not you need to keep that defense up or if you can lower it to combat them. Or if you're fighting a Wizard (who usually have low AC) and their Summon or Dragon (or even other melee party member!) is attacking you, Expertise/Improved Expertise are a great way to mitigate that secondary source of damage so you can focus your effort on killing the Mage.

I personally use them all the time. They're consistently bound to my F1 and F4 keys on that first hotbar to make them easy to reach in a pinch. They make the lowbie grind so much easier, and (depending on the build) do the same for the higher-level grind. I think one of the easiest leveling times I've ever had on Arelith was playing a high-damage STR monk/rogue while the party Weaponmaster sat in Improved Expertise with me on -guard. I was the DPS, he was the shield. We went from 3 to 26 in the span of a few days.
Then killed ourselves for sweet, sweet normal rewards.


Overall the uses of Expertise/Improved Expertise are primarily defensive (go figure), but to that end only really stop when you run out of creative ways to use them.

But Dirty Fighting is still trash. Don't take it.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

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quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

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My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


solo
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Re: Expertise

Post by solo » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:40 pm

Well, damn, I'm sold.

I hope the sweet, sweet normal rewards were worth it :)

Alox
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Re: Expertise

Post by Alox » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:22 pm

Vrass wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:54 am
I have Imp Exp on my character... gives me 40 ac unbuffed. Almost everyone i have talked to says that is very good for a pure caster build.
Expertise is turned off when you cast a spell. Not very good for pure caster builds really.

Alox
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Re: Expertise

Post by Alox » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:26 pm

Expertise is mostly a trick for PvE. Mobs eventually gets in the 40ies AB, so you need to reach high 50ies or even into 60ies AC if you are "tanking", which is very hard to achieve without improved expertise.

For PvP you can drink a potion for +20 AB, but you cannot drink a potion for +20 AC.

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Jack Oat
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Re: Expertise

Post by Jack Oat » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:11 pm

Alox wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:26 pm
For PvP you can drink a potion for +20 AB, but you cannot drink a potion for +20 AC.
You're missing some caveats with this.
A potion that lasts 9 seconds, takes half a round to use then a 3 second delay before first attacks, and can be outrun by a melee build who sees the telltale "shwoop" appear above your head. Truestrike potions aren't the end-all be-all. They're useful, but they don't hard-counter AC from Imp Expertise.

Plus, depending on the build Imp Expertise can make a truestrike worthless or not NEARLY as effective, such as Brycers/Anti-Brycers (FTR heavy Paladin or BG dip builds), Melee Palemasters, or BG/Palemasters. Or Monks, some Clerics, Rogues, etc. Will that first Truestrike attack hit? Probably, maybe. Will the next 3? Maybe not, depending on the AC.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


Vrass
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Re: Expertise

Post by Vrass » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:28 pm

Yeah it goes down while casting but it only takes a few seconds to turn it back on and it comes in handy as an (oh S***) button. Besides i dont cast that many spells, often times my summons can handle any mobs as long as i buff and heal them now and then. Works great so far.

Alox
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Re: Expertise

Post by Alox » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:25 am

Vrass wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:28 pm
Yeah it goes down while casting but it only takes a few seconds to turn it back on and it comes in handy as an (oh S***) button. Besides i dont cast that many spells, often times my summons can handle any mobs as long as i buff and heal them now and then. Works great so far.
If you are in combat, you have to wait for the next combat round before you can turn it on again. That is a wait for up to 6 seconds. Average about 3 seconds. And the game is a bit buggy, so you might cancel turning it on if you do other stuff in that period (or by mistake press it twice because it is not reacting...). So as an oh shit button it is not that super effective/responsive, you really need to turn it on before the combat starts.

If you are not planning on casting spells in combat, imp. expertise is great.

Alox
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Re: Expertise

Post by Alox » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:28 am

Jack Oat wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:11 pm
Alox wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:26 pm
For PvP you can drink a potion for +20 AB, but you cannot drink a potion for +20 AC.
You're missing some caveats with this.
A potion that lasts 9 seconds, takes half a round to use then a 3 second delay before first attacks, and can be outrun by a melee build who sees the telltale "shwoop" appear above your head. Truestrike potions aren't the end-all be-all. They're useful, but they don't hard-counter AC from Imp Expertise.

Plus, depending on the build Imp Expertise can make a truestrike worthless or not NEARLY as effective, such as Brycers/Anti-Brycers (FTR heavy Paladin or BG dip builds), Melee Palemasters, or BG/Palemasters. Or Monks, some Clerics, Rogues, etc. Will that first Truestrike attack hit? Probably, maybe. Will the next 3? Maybe not, depending on the AC.
It is certainly the case that PvP can be a complicated affair. :-)

In the current meta true strike potions are quite important, especially cause that first hit could be a knock down (or a disarm if the attacker really wants to make you cry).

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Tarkus the dog
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Re: Expertise

Post by Tarkus the dog » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:19 am

When you're a level 10 dude wanting to raise your xp rate by going into the Malar Forest ( god forbid you actually go there to farm xp lol ) and your gear mostly consists of +1 and STR, you can't survive there long without improved expertise. In fact, most of the time you'll be using it. The only time you don't want to use improved expertise is when you're a palemaster and when you're about to kill something, but not at the cost of losing your life in the process.

The more you use it the more you have it figured out.
In the current meta true strike potions are quite important, especially cause that first hit could be a knock down (or a disarm if the attacker really wants to make you cry).
Yeah good luck using true strike against anyone with a brain.

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