You were right the first time! Handaxe is indeed a rogue weapon.liver and bones wrote: ↑Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:52 amEDIT: This was rubbish.BoltNRun wrote: ↑Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:20 amStill the AB will still be around the mark of not being the best? The more I think about it, the more I kind of lean to just going dual handaxes for my own flair. Especially if the AB will be the same. Or even just dual daggers.liver and bones wrote: ↑Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:18 am
Same still, but at least both of your weapons will be 43 AB. If you went the handaxe/dagger, it would be 43/40.
I've noticed something I forgot to mention. "At level 19, gain +1 AB when using any Rogue Proficiency weapon, except the quarterstaff."
Going handaxe will yield you only 41/41, as it's not a rogue weapon.
Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs
-
- Posts: 2364
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:34 am
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
-
- Posts: 281
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:08 pm
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
There's a source of +5 from Bark? I thought the best non-caster Bark was +4, and I think that's on an item with a high UMD restriction.Fionn wrote: ↑Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:55 amcookie cutter (aka optimal) Rog build is that. Rog gets */3 bonus AC, so leather (Dex cap 6) becomes 2+14. Rogue Leathers (+5), Shield +6, Bark +5, IE +10, and at least 3 for Deflection, 1 for Dodge = 48. Assuming you can keep Shield up and get an extra Dodge that's 51. Not fabulous, but if you get Epic Dodge (thus Defensive roll) it gets pretty tanky.
This requires 38 Dex for AC, thus 26 base.
As stated above, having a buddy -guard let's you ignore your own AC and sneak away. I wouldn't plan on trying to tank this as PVE in the first place. My own is a Parry build (Fencing Buckler, Trident Dagger) - great against any single enemy dumb enough to keep swinging. If you want to solo, I'd recommend either taking some SD or getting real good at diving out of sight to re-stealth and heal.
Better yet, go Stealth god Clr/Rog and make me some Divine ii & knock wands
But for AC it's something like: 10 base + 15 DEX mod + 6 tumble + 1 boot + 1 dodge mage armor + 5 shadow shield or 3 bark + 3 armor + 4 haste (blinding speed) + 4 shield spell or 3 addy helm + 2 armor skin = 48 to 51.
You also get an inflated, theoretical +5 AC due to epic dodge due to your enemy always missing their first hit.
So, we'll say 56 max by your own buffs/items.
Expertise: 53 to 56. IE: 56 to 61.
56 AC is great, though. Requires an avg AB (46 to 47) to hit you for a nat 20 when you have improved expertise on. You should win most melee 1v1's due to your higher APR (easier chance to hit a 20), so long as you run a lot of discipline and concentration.
And if you hit your flashbang and garner at least 8 AB, that's a 95%/70%/45%/95% chance (due to nat 1's) to hit; most melee builds have 47 to 51 AC, so as long as you don't use expertise or IE you can land a bunch of attacks. A sneak vulnerable character is going to take 448 on avg (if you land all hits) in that one round they're stunned.
Put up your IE, wait 3 rounds, then hit them with flashbangs till one stuns. Bam, another hypothetical 448. And if they try to spam healkits they become flat-flooted (aka sneak vulnerable and +6-7 AB).
-
- Posts: 2364
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:34 am
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Not to further confuse the AC calculations, but if we're talking the cookie-cutter rogue, it'd look something like this:
- 10 base
+14 Dex (the cookie-cutter gets a +15 Dex bonus, however with 24 rogue levels and leather armor, only 14 is applied to AC)
+6 Tumble
+7 Rogue Leathers (2 base, +4 Armor bonus, +1 Fighter bonus)
+6 Dodge (+1 boots, +1 Mage Armor, +4 haste)
+4 Deflection (Shield spell, or +3 from adamantine helmet)
+5 Natural (Shadow Shield spell, or +4 Barkskin from a wand)
+2 Armor Skin
= 52 - 54 AC
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
err... .yea, what he said Did I mention I'll be rolling that parry build eventually
~~~~~~
Badger
Wynn
RIP: Paddy
Badger
Wynn
RIP: Paddy
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Dayum. So they can get pretty tanky. Accompanied by some really high sneak attack damage. And this is just with the cookie cutter build? But that build is for humans only. I know going any other race hinders it a bit due to losing a free feat. Is there other options for non humans?
And about the crossbow, what is the biggest difference between it and a short bow? If I were to go kobold, could I not make up for it with a free Rapid Reload?
I am also curious to know if rogues can utilize poison effectively? And traps; is there damage worth the investment?
I like the aspect of party. Maybe because I love For Honor, or maybe because it's such a cool concept. Though I have read that if you have more then three attacks it's not worth it? And the riposte? When does it activate?
And about the crossbow, what is the biggest difference between it and a short bow? If I were to go kobold, could I not make up for it with a free Rapid Reload?
I am also curious to know if rogues can utilize poison effectively? And traps; is there damage worth the investment?
I like the aspect of party. Maybe because I love For Honor, or maybe because it's such a cool concept. Though I have read that if you have more then three attacks it's not worth it? And the riposte? When does it activate?
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Yes, but at the cost of your amazing RP of a Purist Axe/Dagger man!
~~~~~~
Badger
Wynn
RIP: Paddy
Badger
Wynn
RIP: Paddy
-
- Posts: 426
- Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:45 pm
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Humans aren't necessarily the best. The 24 rogue/6 fighter has plenty of feats and skill points on any race. Hin rogues have good aim (best used with slings), can start with up to 22 dex and can use the Dale Sword plus they have racial bonuses that favor rogues. Kobolds, Goblins, Elves and a few more also have that +2 dex which is IMO worth more than a bonus starting feat. Half-orcs, dwarves and duergar make solid rogues too for more obtuse reasons.
You can really make a good rogue of any race that doesn't have a dexterity penalty, it's a very adaptable class.
You can really make a good rogue of any race that doesn't have a dexterity penalty, it's a very adaptable class.
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
i'm tellin yall, halfling 24/6 STR 2 handing a morningstar, morningstar is a rogue weapon so enjoy having a 2 handed +5 morningstar on a STr base with all that dang ol' AB and dmg, but like literally no AC at all and no epic dodge and no one should do this but me, let me suffer
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
I'm really thinking about just doing the axe/dagger. I know one would only have 43 AB but I don't think that's too bad. If I find it starts hindering me later on then I can just dual wield one of them.
But I still wanna know why crossbow is worse then shortbow? Wouldn't Rapid Reload put them at same attacks?
But I still wanna know why crossbow is worse then shortbow? Wouldn't Rapid Reload put them at same attacks?
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Rapid Reload grants the same number of attacks, but it 's a Feat you wouldn't need if you use the a bow. If you're going for WF/IC/WSp/EWF/EWSp in even one of those light weapons, and Expertise, IE, Blinding Speed, Epic Dodge for the Rogue I expect you're running low on Feats. Note that Hin get +1 AB with slings for free.
OTOH, Ashwood HCB looks to be slightly better than LB. Gonne is better yet if spendy.
OTOH, Ashwood HCB looks to be slightly better than LB. Gonne is better yet if spendy.
~~~~~~
Badger
Wynn
RIP: Paddy
Badger
Wynn
RIP: Paddy
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Ahhh true. I will be feat starved. i forgot that it's skill points rogues get a crap ton of. Gonne would be cool too. I know that ranged is only going to be my backup but still, if I can somehow squeeze in rapid reload I'd love to do that.
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Gonne needs no focus. You just whip it out ang go boom.
I’d choose to focus on either dagger or handaxe. You can always keep an axe/dagger handy for those situations where you don’t need to be at max capacity.
I’d choose to focus on either dagger or handaxe. You can always keep an axe/dagger handy for those situations where you don’t need to be at max capacity.
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
True. I can always just switch to dual handaxes when I need to get serious I suppose. Though is there a way to fit rapid reload in that cookie cutter build?
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Hm if you go human (i.e. extra feat) you -could- do with without imp knockdown. As a halfling, elf or whatevs you could sacrifice kd.
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Interesting. Thank you Jagel! I know Imp KD is pretty stellar though but I do like crossbows
-
- Posts: 2364
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:34 am
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Nope. Nothing works with gonne. It's best to not even think of it as a crossbow. It's a whole different weapon.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
I had another question. If I was to go kobold, and i used the cookie cutter build, it'd be best to just drop the improved knockdown correct? I know kobolds get rapid reload for free. Can they dual wield handaxes without penalties? I know their size is small so I don't know if they get a penalty for dual wielding
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Handaxe will count as a large weapon in terms of dual wielding for kobos I believe.
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Oh i thought they'd be treated as medium weapons for them? So if i were to dual wield handaxes, I would have a greater penalty?
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Right, medium’s what I meant *facepalm*
You need tiny weapons for minimal DW penalties for small races
You need tiny weapons for minimal DW penalties for small races
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Ahhhh so going dual handaxes would hurt my AB even more if I go kobold? I could just do the handaxes/dagger idea. AB would be hurt but not as much if I have a light weapon in my offhand.
Also, the gonne is mechanically a heavy crossbow, which is a medium weapon. Essentially a kobold could wield one right?
Also, the gonne is mechanically a heavy crossbow, which is a medium weapon. Essentially a kobold could wield one right?
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Yes, everyone can wield HCB (with the exception of Imp I believe)
~~~~~~
Badger
Wynn
RIP: Paddy
Badger
Wynn
RIP: Paddy
Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds
Ahhhh alright cool. Something about a kobold with a gonne seems hilarious and so fun though lol, though can anyone tell me how much my AB would suffer if I did go dual handaxes on a kobold?