Rogues: Weapons and Builds

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:25 am

liver and bones wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:52 am
BoltNRun wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:20 am
liver and bones wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:18 am


Same still, but at least both of your weapons will be 43 AB. If you went the handaxe/dagger, it would be 43/40.
Still the AB will still be around the mark of not being the best? The more I think about it, the more I kind of lean to just going dual handaxes for my own flair. Especially if the AB will be the same. Or even just dual daggers.
EDIT: This was rubbish.

I've noticed something I forgot to mention. "At level 19, gain +1 AB when using any Rogue Proficiency weapon, except the quarterstaff."

Going handaxe will yield you only 41/41, as it's not a rogue weapon.
You were right the first time! Handaxe is indeed a rogue weapon.
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liver and bones
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by liver and bones » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:03 pm

Fionn wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:55 am
cookie cutter (aka optimal) Rog build is that. Rog gets */3 bonus AC, so leather (Dex cap 6) becomes 2+14. Rogue Leathers (+5), Shield +6, Bark +5, IE +10, and at least 3 for Deflection, 1 for Dodge = 48. Assuming you can keep Shield up and get an extra Dodge that's 51. Not fabulous, but if you get Epic Dodge (thus Defensive roll) it gets pretty tanky.

This requires 38 Dex for AC, thus 26 base.

As stated above, having a buddy -guard let's you ignore your own AC and sneak away. I wouldn't plan on trying to tank this as PVE in the first place. My own is a Parry build (Fencing Buckler, Trident Dagger) - great against any single enemy dumb enough to keep swinging. If you want to solo, I'd recommend either taking some SD or getting real good at diving out of sight to re-stealth and heal.

Better yet, go Stealth god Clr/Rog and make me some Divine ii & knock wands :)
There's a source of +5 from Bark? I thought the best non-caster Bark was +4, and I think that's on an item with a high UMD restriction.

But for AC it's something like: 10 base + 15 DEX mod + 6 tumble + 1 boot + 1 dodge mage armor + 5 shadow shield or 3 bark + 3 armor + 4 haste (blinding speed) + 4 shield spell or 3 addy helm + 2 armor skin = 48 to 51.

You also get an inflated, theoretical +5 AC due to epic dodge due to your enemy always missing their first hit.
So, we'll say 56 max by your own buffs/items.

Expertise: 53 to 56. IE: 56 to 61.

56 AC is great, though. Requires an avg AB (46 to 47) to hit you for a nat 20 when you have improved expertise on. You should win most melee 1v1's due to your higher APR (easier chance to hit a 20), so long as you run a lot of discipline and concentration.

And if you hit your flashbang and garner at least 8 AB, that's a 95%/70%/45%/95% chance (due to nat 1's) to hit; most melee builds have 47 to 51 AC, so as long as you don't use expertise or IE you can land a bunch of attacks. A sneak vulnerable character is going to take 448 on avg (if you land all hits) in that one round they're stunned.

Put up your IE, wait 3 rounds, then hit them with flashbangs till one stuns. Bam, another hypothetical 448. And if they try to spam healkits they become flat-flooted (aka sneak vulnerable and +6-7 AB).

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:41 pm

Not to further confuse the AC calculations, but if we're talking the cookie-cutter rogue, it'd look something like this:
  • 10 base
    +14 Dex (the cookie-cutter gets a +15 Dex bonus, however with 24 rogue levels and leather armor, only 14 is applied to AC)
    +6 Tumble
    +7 Rogue Leathers (2 base, +4 Armor bonus, +1 Fighter bonus)
    +6 Dodge (+1 boots, +1 Mage Armor, +4 haste)
    +4 Deflection (Shield spell, or +3 from adamantine helmet)
    +5 Natural (Shadow Shield spell, or +4 Barkskin from a wand)
    +2 Armor Skin
    = 52 - 54 AC
This can be increased by a further 15-16 by switching to a shield in the offhand (+6 for a wood Enchanted Shield or +5 for a Fencing Buckler, which is much easier to get) and turning on Improved Expertise, leaving you with a max AC somewhere in the range of 67-70. On top of Epic Dodge, that makes you extremely tanky... as long as you're not flatfooted!
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Fionn
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by Fionn » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:14 pm

err... .yea, what he said ;) Did I mention I'll be rolling that parry build eventually ;)
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BoltNRun
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by BoltNRun » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:18 pm

Dayum. So they can get pretty tanky. Accompanied by some really high sneak attack damage. And this is just with the cookie cutter build? But that build is for humans only. I know going any other race hinders it a bit due to losing a free feat. Is there other options for non humans?

And about the crossbow, what is the biggest difference between it and a short bow? If I were to go kobold, could I not make up for it with a free Rapid Reload?

I am also curious to know if rogues can utilize poison effectively? And traps; is there damage worth the investment?

I like the aspect of party. Maybe because I love For Honor, or maybe because it's such a cool concept. Though I have read that if you have more then three attacks it's not worth it? And the riposte? When does it activate?

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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by Fionn » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:07 pm

BoltNRun wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:05 am
So if I follow the cookie cutter build for Rogue i can do dual wield on what I want, get the grenades and still make some impressive traps? ALSO a gonne!
Yes, but at the cost of your amazing RP of a Purist Axe/Dagger man!
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Sea Shanties
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by Sea Shanties » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:23 pm

Humans aren't necessarily the best. The 24 rogue/6 fighter has plenty of feats and skill points on any race. Hin rogues have good aim (best used with slings), can start with up to 22 dex and can use the Dale Sword plus they have racial bonuses that favor rogues. Kobolds, Goblins, Elves and a few more also have that +2 dex which is IMO worth more than a bonus starting feat. Half-orcs, dwarves and duergar make solid rogues too for more obtuse reasons.

You can really make a good rogue of any race that doesn't have a dexterity penalty, it's a very adaptable class.

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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:50 pm

i'm tellin yall, halfling 24/6 STR 2 handing a morningstar, morningstar is a rogue weapon so enjoy having a 2 handed +5 morningstar on a STr base with all that dang ol' AB and dmg, but like literally no AC at all and no epic dodge and no one should do this but me, let me suffer

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BoltNRun
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by BoltNRun » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:15 am

Fionn wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:07 pm
BoltNRun wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:05 am
So if I follow the cookie cutter build for Rogue i can do dual wield on what I want, get the grenades and still make some impressive traps? ALSO a gonne!
Yes, but at the cost of your amazing RP of a Purist Axe/Dagger man!
You wound me! I want to do it I really do! Might do it just because actually.

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BoltNRun
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by BoltNRun » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:24 pm

I'm really thinking about just doing the axe/dagger. I know one would only have 43 AB but I don't think that's too bad. If I find it starts hindering me later on then I can just dual wield one of them.

But I still wanna know why crossbow is worse then shortbow? Wouldn't Rapid Reload put them at same attacks?

Fionn
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by Fionn » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:47 pm

Rapid Reload grants the same number of attacks, but it 's a Feat you wouldn't need if you use the a bow. If you're going for WF/IC/WSp/EWF/EWSp in even one of those light weapons, and Expertise, IE, Blinding Speed, Epic Dodge for the Rogue I expect you're running low on Feats. Note that Hin get +1 AB with slings for free.

OTOH, Ashwood HCB looks to be slightly better than LB. Gonne is better yet if spendy.
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by BoltNRun » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:40 pm

Ahhh true. I will be feat starved. i forgot that it's skill points rogues get a crap ton of. Gonne would be cool too. I know that ranged is only going to be my backup but still, if I can somehow squeeze in rapid reload I'd love to do that.

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Jagel
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by Jagel » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:39 am

Gonne needs no focus. You just whip it out ang go boom.

I’d choose to focus on either dagger or handaxe. You can always keep an axe/dagger handy for those situations where you don’t need to be at max capacity.

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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by BoltNRun » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:23 am

True. I can always just switch to dual handaxes when I need to get serious I suppose. Though is there a way to fit rapid reload in that cookie cutter build?

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Jagel
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by Jagel » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:24 am

Hm if you go human (i.e. extra feat) you -could- do with without imp knockdown. As a halfling, elf or whatevs you could sacrifice kd.

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BoltNRun
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by BoltNRun » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:06 am

Interesting. Thank you Jagel! I know Imp KD is pretty stellar though but I do like crossbows

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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by Fionn » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:10 pm

Does rapid reload work with Gonne?
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:29 pm

Fionn wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:10 pm
Does rapid reload work with Gonne?
Nope. Nothing works with gonne. It's best to not even think of it as a crossbow. It's a whole different weapon.
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BoltNRun
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by BoltNRun » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:26 am

I had another question. If I was to go kobold, and i used the cookie cutter build, it'd be best to just drop the improved knockdown correct? I know kobolds get rapid reload for free. Can they dual wield handaxes without penalties? I know their size is small so I don't know if they get a penalty for dual wielding

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Jagel
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by Jagel » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:59 am

Handaxe will count as a large weapon in terms of dual wielding for kobos I believe.

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BoltNRun
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by BoltNRun » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:05 am

Oh i thought they'd be treated as medium weapons for them? So if i were to dual wield handaxes, I would have a greater penalty?

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Jagel
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by Jagel » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:25 am

Right, medium’s what I meant *facepalm*

You need tiny weapons for minimal DW penalties for small races

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BoltNRun
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by BoltNRun » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:40 am

Ahhhh so going dual handaxes would hurt my AB even more if I go kobold? I could just do the handaxes/dagger idea. AB would be hurt but not as much if I have a light weapon in my offhand.

Also, the gonne is mechanically a heavy crossbow, which is a medium weapon. Essentially a kobold could wield one right?

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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by Fionn » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:04 pm

BoltNRun wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:40 am
Also, the gonne is mechanically a heavy crossbow, which is a medium weapon. Essentially a kobold could wield one right?
Yes, everyone can wield HCB (with the exception of Imp I believe)
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Re: Rogues: Weapons and Builds

Post by BoltNRun » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:58 pm

Ahhhh alright cool. Something about a kobold with a gonne seems hilarious and so fun though lol, though can anyone tell me how much my AB would suffer if I did go dual handaxes on a kobold?

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