Rogues: Weapons and Builds

[BoltNRun]

Hey everyone

I know I post here a lot and recently had help on a spells word build (which I love!) But I was just reading through the wiki and noticed some cool things about rogues in this server.

My first question is about the grenades? Are they useful or like just flavor for RP?

My second question is about Weapons. I noticed that going rapier is probably the most common choice due to the damage. That makes me wonder how does that fare against the traditional dual dagger rogue? And what about handaxes? I feel that could be a good alternative? How about a crossbow? As an range option for a melee rogue? I know Rapid Reload would be needed. Could a rogue that does dual daggers or handaxes also take a crossbow for decent range damage?

My third is about traps. Are they a useful tactic for PvM or PvP in Arelith? Do they build off of rogue as well?

I'll keep it at three question for now. I just got so many ideas and a grenade, trapper rogue with melee and range sounds so cool lol

[liver and bones]

I'm back again.

Near all of them have a use. Some are just defensive and some are offensive. The best IMO are Disjunction Shard and onwards. And they will be useful with your reasonable DC of 37 (if you follow the cookie cutter build).

As a rogue here at 10 any feat you take in rapier (like weapon focus) automatically yields you the dagger equivalent. The idea is you mainhand the rapier and then offhand the dagger to offset the dual-wielding penalty. There's no point in going anything but because of this. Be mindful you need the Ambidexterity feat first.

If you want to use range, there's no point using anything but a bow that I can think of atm, aside from a Gonne (speciality "crossbow"/gun).

Traps are decent in PvP. Thankfully you don't need to heavily invest into it, but I'll leave that to someone with more experience to explain as I'm not sure of the points needed.

[BoltNRun]

Okay so rapier/dagger does seem like the best choice. Could a dual dagger or dual handaxes rogue not be viable then?

And if I wanted to go light crossbow for RP choices would it be that bad? All you would need is Rapid Reload to get more then one APR right? It wouldn't need to be heavily focused in. Just an option to switch too? Or is it another case of that there isn't really anything good endgame choices like other weapons have?

Also.. this gonne. What is the damage like? It says it's a touch attack and it seems like it functions like a blunderbuss to me in terms of function.

[Jagel]

Hand axes are fine. Dagger/rapier is the optimal choice but short sword or handaxe will still be good choices.

Crossbow is suboptimal since you’re wasting a feat and you will be realying on sneak attacks for damage, not crits. Short bow is way better as a backup ranged weapon.

[Fionn]

gonne is a (I think) 10d20 ranged touch attack (or some such ~100 HP hello). Note it requires special gonne shells that sell for 1-3K each. Also note Crossbow feats do not affect the scripted gonne attack.

For tall folk, Rapier/Dagger is optimal. For short folk, SS/Dagger (or dual of either). There are a lot of nice dagger drops out there, so you may wish to ignore the free feats and stick to daggers. I'm not aware of any great Rogue handaxes, though I'm sure Masterly Damask can me made.

Do note the new Carpentry shield gets 6 AC and is enchantable with a lesser rune. Dual sneak attack, then raise the shield if they're still standing is an option.

[Baron Saturday]

gonne is a (I think) 10d20 ranged touch attack (or some such ~100 HP hello). Note it requires special gonne shells that sell for 1-3K each. Also note Crossbow feats do not affect the scripted gonne attack.

It also has a chance (5% I believe, basically rolling a 1 on a hidden roll) to set you on fire, similar to being hit by a combust spell. Damage-wise, gonne mechanics are kinda obfuscated. My own guess would be that they do 1d20+80 and have a 5% chance to crit for x2. You can only fire a gonne 1/round. The special ammo requires a moderate investment in alchemy to make, and you need iron ingots, alchemist's fire (which is available cheaply from some NPCs at major hubs), and alexandrite dust (which is a giant pain to get). You cannot use a gonne until level 13, however they require zero feat investment to use (beyond needing crossbow proficiency).

In my experience, gonnes are an excellent tool for rogues when dealing with sneak-immune enemies who you would otherwise deal absolutely piddling damage to. They're handy when you're accompanying higher-level characters, as they let you sit in the backline and dish out decent damage against enemies you might struggle to hit in melee. Also not bad for interrupting unhasted spellcasters.

Their main drawbacks are weight (9lbs for the gonne itself, plus 0.3 lbs per gonne explosive slug), acquiring the ammo, and the cap on your damage. For comparison, a level 30 warlock will be dealing ~135 damage/round on top of debuffs and disables.

[BoltNRun]

I do like the idea of going dual wield then switching out to a shield if the initial attack doesn't work. The idea of the traditional dual dagger rogue is still alluring to me. Well actually going handaxes and dagger is what I kind of want. Odd combo I know but I like the aesthetic. The dual dagger combo though does seem somewhat lackluster though. 1d4 dmg with only x2 critical compared to other options which have higher dmg output. Though, I feel some of the dagger drops have some awesome effects though.

Since the gonne doesn't require crossbow feats, does this mean no feats are needed to make it work?

[Baron Saturday]

Since the gonne doesn't require crossbow feats, does this mean no feats are needed to make it work?

You cannot use a gonne until level 13, however they require zero feat investment to use (beyond needing crossbow proficiency).

Since we posted at pretty much the same time, thought I'd highlight this for you!

[Fionn]

Since we posted at pretty much the same time, thought I'd highlight this for you!

Thanks - hadn't noticed the ILR. I believe anyone can equip without prof, but you'd have a -4AB (on a very easy ranged touch)

[Fionn]

Odd combo I know but I like the aesthetic. The dual dagger combo though does seem somewhat lackluster though. 1d4 dmg with only x2 critical compared to other options which have higher dmg output.

This isn't 3T, you don't need the perfect build to be enjoyable. d4/20 vs d6/18-20 gets noticeable for a WM with a Keen blade. It's vastly less so with a double 13d6 sneak If you want to play a toon that likes Axe/Dagger, then do that. Dismantling Dagger is great for constructs. Masterly Damask is great for most everything else. I know a mage at the Tower can magic up bronze for you if you don't mind frequent repair bills

[BoltNRun]

Oh I know. I have a spells word that uses a halberd (emulated as a glaive) and I love him.

I would like to do a handaxes/dagger combo though. If I'm dual wielding two small weapons there's not much of a penalty as long as I get ambidextrous?

Like what I am kind of shooting for is a rogue build that can go dual wield OMG for pain, has a ranged back up and a shield just in case. My RP concept is kind of like a gypsy sellsword. Specializes in tracking down his quarry and utilizing all his special stuff; grenades, traps, a freaking gonne, and a whole slew of other fun things. Another way to put it would be like bounty Hunter or witch Hunter who dabbles in tinkering.

[liver and bones]

Aesthetic is great, but understand your limitations. Axe + dagger means you'll be lacking WF's and weapon specs in one weapon. I recommend going WF and specs in the handaxe to maximize your AB so one hand will hit consistently.

Otherwise, double dagger is fine.
Avg hit of dagger = 2.
Avg hit of handaxe = 3.

You could honestly go shortswords. Look like daggers, but 1d6 19-20x2. Less of a chance to be disarmed, too.

Also, be mindful about getting a PvE buddy to -guard you so you can sneak attack things.

I think your max AB (when using masterly damask and dual-wielding) is 43?

[BoltNRun]

Yea I knew that I would be having to sacrifice feats for one weapon. If only that little feature rapier gets applied to all finessable weapons. Would allow more customization but it's what it is.

I was thinking shortswords but I dunno. Hatchets interest me because I don't see them all that often.

I'm not exactly sure what is considered high AB so I am assuming that it pretty good?

[liver and bones]

Yea I knew that I would be having to sacrifice feats for one weapon. If only that little feature rapier gets applied to all finessable weapons. Would allow more customization but it's what it is.

I was thinking shortswords but I dunno. Hatchets interest me because I don't see them all that often.

I'm not exactly sure what is considered high AB so I am assuming that it pretty good?

As much as I want to lie, I can't. The AB is pretty bad for a build that you hope will do a lot of damage in melee, as average is 46ish. HOWEVER, the flashbang will boost your AB by 2 or more (usually 6 more due to 6 AC from tumble). Now, that's pretty wild. 51 AB and sneak vulnerable AND 8 APR w/ blinding speed.

[BoltNRun]

Hmmm well going rapier/dagger doesn't seem that bad. I'm assuming that going rapier/dagger the AB will be better then?

[Fionn]

Hmmm well going rapier/dagger doesn't seem that bad. I'm assuming that going rapier/dagger the AB will be better then?

Rapier/Dagger you can put feats into Rapier, and get the other set for free at Rog10 (e.g. Weapon Focus:Rapier gives you free Weapon Focus: Dagger). Ditto Epic WF. This adds to your AB for both.

You might look at Rog24/Rgr6 and use Dual Wield vs Ambi/TWF. You'll need a dip for Disc in any case. You'll miss Imp 2WF (unless you go Rog20/Rgr10), but 2 Favored Enemies helps a bit for Undead/Constructs that ignore your sneaks.

[liver and bones]

Hmmm well going rapier/dagger doesn't seem that bad. I'm assuming that going rapier/dagger the AB will be better then?

Same still, but at least both of your weapons will be 43 AB. If you went the handaxe/dagger, it would be 43/40.

[BoltNRun]

Hmmm well going rapier/dagger doesn't seem that bad. I'm assuming that going rapier/dagger the AB will be better then?

Same still, but at least both of your weapons will be 43 AB. If you went the handaxe/dagger, it would be 43/40.

Still the AB will still be around the mark of not being the best? The more I think about it, the more I kind of lean to just going dual handaxes for my own flair. Especially if the AB will be the same. Or even just dual daggers.

[liver and bones]

Hmmm well going rapier/dagger doesn't seem that bad. I'm assuming that going rapier/dagger the AB will be better then?

Same still, but at least both of your weapons will be 43 AB. If you went the handaxe/dagger, it would be 43/40.

Still the AB will still be around the mark of not being the best? The more I think about it, the more I kind of lean to just going dual handaxes for my own flair. Especially if the AB will be the same. Or even just dual daggers.

EDIT: This was rubbish.

I've noticed something I forgot to mention. "At level 19, gain +1 AB when using any Rogue Proficiency weapon, except the quarterstaff."

Going handaxe will yield you only 41/41, as it's not a rogue weapon.

[BoltNRun]

Lol well I don't think I'd play a gnome. Perhaps a halfling, kobold, human or Half-orc actually. I don't normally like to play just a normal human but the witch hunter/bounty hunter idea I have does seem cool. Okay so regardless of the weapon, 43 AB is high as they can go. If I wanted to be able to get the best grenades with high DC i know I need to be 24 rogue. I know that the cookie cutter build is 24rog/6ftr, but ranger did sound cool. Wouldn't I get all the dual wield feats for free? Could save on some feats right?

[Fionn]

Lol well I don't think I'd play a gnome. Perhaps a halfling, kobold, human or Half-orc actually. I don't normally like to play just a normal human but the witch hunter/bounty hunter idea I have does seem cool. Okay so regardless of the weapon, 43 AB is high as they can go. If I wanted to be able to get the best grenades with high DC i know I need to be 24 rogue. I know that the cookie cutter build is 24rog/6ftr, but ranger did sound cool. Wouldn't I get all the dual wield feats for free? Could save on some feats right?

6 Ftr is 4 Feats. Rgr gets Dual Wield (replaces 2 weapon Feats while in light armor), or at Rgr 9 you get improved (but go 10 for two more Favored Enemies, or 11th for Blade Thirst. More a flavor thing than saving on feats. You *do* get Defensive Dual Wield to up your AC, but that doesn't help on AB. OTOH, there's a reason the cookie cutter build uses Rog24/Ftr6

[liver and bones]

Lol well I don't think I'd play a gnome. Perhaps a halfling, kobold, human or Half-orc actually. I don't normally like to play just a normal human but the witch hunter/bounty hunter idea I have does seem cool. Okay so regardless of the weapon, 43 AB is high as they can go. If I wanted to be able to get the best grenades with high DC i know I need to be 24 rogue. I know that the cookie cutter build is 24rog/6ftr, but ranger did sound cool. Wouldn't I get all the dual wield feats for free? Could save on some feats right?

You're trading essentially 2 feats for +2 AB on three (2 favored + 1 studied) racial archetypes. One of those feats is extremely important (Improved Two Weapon Fighting). In the end, not worth.

[BoltNRun]

Hmm so just 24rog/6ftr would be the way to go. What is the AC like for a build like this? The way i see playing this build would be me using traps and stuff as well. Which makes me ask if traps get some sort of bonus for whatever level your rogue is maybe?

[Fionn]

cookie cutter (aka optimal) Rog build is that. Rog gets */3 bonus AC, so leather (Dex cap 6) becomes 2+14. Rogue Leathers (+5), Shield +6, Bark +5, IE +10, and at least 3 for Deflection, 1 for Dodge = 48. Assuming you can keep Shield up and get an extra Dodge that's 51. Not fabulous, but if you get Epic Dodge (thus Defensive roll) it gets pretty tanky.

This requires 38 Dex for AC, thus 26 base.

As stated above, having a buddy -guard let's you ignore your own AC and sneak away. I wouldn't plan on trying to tank this as PVE in the first place. My own is a Parry build (Fencing Buckler, Trident Dagger) - great against any single enemy dumb enough to keep swinging. If you want to solo, I'd recommend either taking some SD or getting real good at diving out of sight to re-stealth and heal.

Better yet, go Stealth god Clr/Rog and make me some Divine ii & knock wands

[BoltNRun]

Huh so cookie cutter is the way to go. Sorry I always ask about these odd builds; i just want to explore things and discuss them really.

So if I follow the cookie cutter build for Rogue i can do dual wield on what I want, get the grenades and still make some impressive traps? ALSO a gonne!