Two Handed Build

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liver and bones
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by liver and bones » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:48 am

BoltNRun wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:07 pm
Sorry to revive this thread after about a month but as I was looking through the wiki trying to read up on some things, I came across something that made me curious.

The double weapons (Two Bladed Sword, Double-Axe, and Dire Mace) all have a special variant of them. The Orcish Blood (Enter weapon choice). It says that it is restricted to anything orcish only. Since a gnoll uses the half-orc template, does this mean that they can use this? I wasn't sure if they could. I mean technically they could since their base template is half-orc right?

Also, sorry for all the random posts and threads. I'm just a curious guy and my mind switches between so many things when it comes to builds, concepts and ideas lol. I settle on one, but I'm always thinking!
You are very much right in that assumption. Due to their half-orc template, they can use the orc-restricted weapons.

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:48 am

Oh damn now that's nice. Hypothetically, could a gnoll ranger with a two bladed sword get some good AB and AC? i know they get defensive duel wielding so that could make up for some of the AC, but since they're going STR, that rules out the naturally high dex AC.

Looking at the wiki they could get the Ranger Runic studded leather and get a good bonus of AC there, right? I'm not sure how many ranger levels is good, or too much to take, but they get that +1 AC every 8 levels. Which means a max of +3. That is basically a shield, not a strong shield but it acts like one?

I feel like the damage will be pretty good though. A double weapon has it's offhand attack count as a light weapon so with all the necessary feats they will only suffer the -2/-2 AB reduction for dual wielding, right?

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by CosmicOrderV » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:46 pm

21/9 ranger rogue is pretty standard for that. Just enough ranger for Bane Of Enemies, then some Tumble and Sneak Attack from rogue. Better still if you come up with an assassin cocncept for this, instead of rogue.
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by TimeAdept » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:13 am

Do not do ranger 21 rogue 9, that is completely useless as a build.

Do 27 ranger 3 bard, or 21 ranger 6 fighter 3 bard, depending on if you want +5 blade thirst.

You don't need rogue on ranger because Ranger gets Evasion on Arelith.

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:26 am

27 ranger gets bladethirst? And AB wise for this build, would it be pretty gnarly? I know it's two handed so it should have better AB but it's also dual wieldinc?

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by CosmicOrderV » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:39 am

While ranger may get Evasion, Rogue is still good for Tumble and Sneak attack. Since a dedicated ranger won't have great AC to begin with, you may as well capitalize on damage. This is why rogue/assassin is ideal. For comparison, with 27 Ranger bard, that is going to net you 1 damage towards your FE, +1 deflection AC when dual-wielding, and 1 damage / Vampric Regen on your Blade Thirst--as compared to 4d6 sneak attack and more skill points. That's not even a competition. Go with the sneak attack, or again, better yet, Assassin since that would allow INT+9 magic damage to the equation. The only suggestion TimeAdept gave that might actually be useful, is throwing fighter into the build. Even with this though, it's better to go ranger/fighter/rogue, to squeeze more damage out. Bard offers you nothing.

As for AB, yes, it will be gnarly. Assuming you go all 1/1 AB progression classes pre-epic, and keep STR as your main stat.
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 pm
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BoltNRun
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:58 am

I thought you would get +3 deflection AC because of the ranger defensive dual wielding, not +1? Especially if I went 27 ranger. I understand that AC won't be that fabulous on this PC, especially since he will be a STR ranger. I was thinking that going Ranger/Rog/Ftr would give me a nice sneak attack, plus some nice skillpoints to spend.

Or perhaps Ranger/Assassin? Not sure how that would work honestly.

Also for a ranger pet I was thinking badger. If I am an underdark race then I feel it'd fit with my gnoll as badgers can be mean little shits. I think they also fare pretty well with the regen they get right?

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by Freyason » Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:11 am

As someone who played ranger to 30, go with TimeAdept's suggestion for str ranger.

PS Bard gives you full spellcraft. That's why it's there over rogue.

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by CosmicOrderV » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:07 pm

My statement about the AC was saying, versus going 21, pure ranger only offers 1 AC more (3 as opposed to 4 : only one higher. You can use a Shield potion to accomplish the same thing, as both give deflection AC.). As for spellcraft, I hadnt considered that. But. That's what uni save gear and buffs are for, I should think. At this point I guess it's just a matter of asking, do you prefer to have more defenses or more offenses.

My last character was an orog 21 ranger, 4 barb, 5 rogue. Hella fun. Dual wield kukri. The AC wasnt great, but most of the time it didnt matter. You can burst down mobs before they kill you. And if you're in a pinch, switch to addy tower shield. As for armor, find a kobold to make the draconic +5 leather.
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
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BoltNRun
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:56 pm

I think in this case I would want more AB. I know that going two handed I'm sacrificing AC already so why not capitalize on my amazing AB even more.

Something about a gnoll wielding a two bladed sword sounds so badass. Just a whirling dervish of tooth, claw and steel lol

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BoltNRun
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:53 pm

Also, sorry for double comment, but wouldn't that runic ranger armor be good? It gives +6 AC and a slew of more things

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by CosmicOrderV » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:35 pm

The ranger runic gives dex, 1 AC more than draconic, and a daily cast of barkskin. You can get wands for barkskin, thats nothing big. Yes it's 1 AC higher, but draconic has discipline and strength, plus its runic so slap some CON on there. Studded leather caps dex bonus to AC at 4. Rangers can cast cats grace, or potion, or wand. So long as you have 12 or 14 dex, you dont need it on gear. Just use buffs.
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
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I, too, struggle to know what is written in books without first reading them.

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by Ork » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:24 am

CosmicOrderV wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:39 am
For comparison, with 27 Ranger bard, that is going to net you 1 damage towards your FE, +1 deflection AC when dual-wielding, and 1 damage / Vampric Regen on your Blade Thirst--as compared to 4d6 sneak attack and more skill points. That's not even a competition.
You missed the part where 27 ranger also gives you 3 more epic feats, +5 weapon for breaking damage reduction, a badass companion and 33 spellcraft w/ bard.

I'd seriously question any advice you're dishing out, hombre.

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by CosmicOrderV » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:26 am

Not sure how to interpret your tone there, Ork. It wasn't missed, so much as a different set of priorities when it comes to building.

On one hand there is waiting for Tumble AC until level 28. That's a long time to wait, and it's not very fun to wait that long.

The +5 weapon isn't often needed, and when it is, there's GMW scrolls or friendly spell-casters. I can understand the convenience of doing it yourself, but for most purposes, +4 is just fine. What you can't get with friendly buffs or wands, is sneak attack and the ability to disable traps over a DC of 40. I enjoy my rangers as traditional hunters, gotta be sure to get Disable and Set Trap. Ideally Animal Empathy as well. The ability for Rangers to henchman animals can be a fun scavenger hunt in itself, as you try to find the best pokemon to capture.

The Spellcraft bit, like mentioned, I hadn't considered, but is another thing that's more convenience. Almost all spells and spell-like effects have hard counters. Death Ward, Negative Energy Protection, Freedom of Movement, Clarity. That, plus having gear to help, is often sufficient. Plus it doesn't involve waiting until the very end of your leveling progression. As a gnoll, as well, the best INT you're looking at without sacrificing too much else, is 14. Ranger gets 6+INT skill points, so 8. Tumble, Set Trap, Disable Trap, Discipline, Hide, Move Silent, Animal Empathy, Heal, and with Rogue, you could add [UMD7/Search11]. Without Rogue, you're looking at 18 skill points less.

Then there's the feats Ranger levels can net you:
bane of enemies, blinding speed, epic prowess, epic spell focus, epic toughness, epic weapon focus, improved combat casting, perfect health

One normally gets 4 epic feats. One of those will be Great Strength I. Another Epic Discipline. Let's make another a detection skill focus, Epic Skill Focus Spot. Then finally Bane of Enemies. Now, if on a 21/9 build, taking your 20th ranger level post epic nets you a feat; among those above? Epic Prowess. It plays into the offensive style the best.

Now let's say you went with those 3 ranger feats instead. Again you get Epic Prowess. You could also pickup Bane of Enemies this way, freeing up an epic feat. Cool. You could go something like Epic Reflexes with that. Doesn't exactly help your offenses, but shores up some defense on a character type that otherwise won't have the best defenses. If you prefer being more tanky, cool, but that's not what I think would be the most fun for this character type. Then there's the third ranger feat. Blinding Speed? Drink a potion for that, or use a wand. Epic Toughness? That's only 20 Hit Points. The Epic Weapon Focus could be useful, if you dip fighter, but that's what not Ork is suggesting.

tl:dr I totally understand, if you want a rounded ranger and don't mind waiting until lvl 28 to see that happen, 27/3 ranger bard accomplishes that. However if you want a more offensive based ranger complete with all the 'trappings' (pun intended), you probably want Rogue.
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 pm
I, too, struggle to know what is written in books without first reading them.

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BoltNRun
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:53 am

Well what I have in mind is kind of between what you have said and what a traditional build would be. Ideally this thread is about two handed so I already know that tankiness won't be the main focus here. I do however want something that can at least hold its own; even if that means killing it faster lol. The sneak attack from rogue does seem pretty stellar. What I want from this gnoll ranger is a strong fighter that can attack fast and deal lots of damage. RP wise, the animal henchman of the ranger does sound cool and the way I envision this rogue is kind of like a beastmaster of sorts. Not in the mindset of him only using summons but more like he has an arsenal of fuzzy death and then he himself is one of them too lol.

In a way I kind of want this gnolls concept to be that he is the alpha hunter y'know? He's big and strong and he can back it up. The animal companions just show that he is the pack leader for a reason lol.

If I can achieve that with a 21/9 build that'd be cool but I feel like throwing in fighter would be beneficial as well?

ALSO, I'm not sure how the tone was to be interpreted either but let's remain friendly on here guys.

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by Ork » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:12 pm

The tone is simply that your advice is bad. If you want a STR Ranger w/ gnoll, here is what I would do.

Race: Gnoll
STR: 19 -> 28
DEX 8
CON 12 (+2 gnoll)
WIS 13
INT 14 (+2 gift)
CHA 6

L1: Ranger(01) Exotic Prof
L2: Ranger(02)
L3: Ranger(03) Expertise
L4: Ranger(04) +1 STR (20)
L5: Ranger(05)
L6: Ranger(06) Imp. Expertise
L7: Ranger(07)
L8: Ranger(08) +1 STR (21)
L9: Ranger(09) WF
L10: Ranger(10)
L11: Ranger (11)
L12: Ranger(12) +1 STR (22), Knockdown
L13: Ranger(13)
L14: Ranger(14)
L15: Ranger(15) Blindfight
L16: Ranger(16) +1 STR (23)
L17: Ranger(17)
L18: Ranger(18) Imp. Crit
L19: Ranger(19)
L20: Ranger(20) +1 STR (24)
L21: Ranger(21) Great STR (25)
L22: Ranger(22)
L23: Ranger(23) Bane
L24: Ranger(24) +1 STR, Great STR (27)
L25: Ranger(25) Epic Prowess
L26: Ranger(26) Epic Weapon Focus
L27: Ranger(27) Epic Skill Focus: Discipline
L28: Bard(01) +1 STR (28)
L29: Bard(02)
L30: Bard(03) Armor Skin

AB w/ double ax 51 (25 bab + 15 STR + 2 Large Weapon - 2 Double Weapon + 3 WF + 1 EP + 5 Enchantment + 2 Bane)

Skills (260) Discipline (33), Heal (33), Move Silent (33), Hide (33), Spellcraft (33), Tumble (30), UMD (16) Remaining (49)

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BoltNRun
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:32 pm

Since I am dual wielding, how many APR will this build get? I never got to ask about that, especially after seeing how the AB will be 51 I'm quite curious to know lol.

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CosmicOrderV
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by CosmicOrderV » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:25 am

Max APR on any build except for monks, is going to be 6, while dual-wielding. 4 main hand, and 2 off-hand. High AB just ensures you're hitting. I'll cook up a ranger/fighter/rogue here in a sec.
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 pm
I, too, struggle to know what is written in books without first reading them.

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by CosmicOrderV » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:43 am

The short and dirty of it. What Ork suggests will be pique damage output and AB, but not much else. However, for a loss of 1 AB, 7 to fortitude saves vs spells, 5 to will save vs spells, and 2 reflex save vs spells, you could gain more AC, damage, and tools at your disposal.

+ 4 more AC (+1 Dodge, +1 AC in light armor with DEX via Rogue and a Base DEX that can reach CAP [5] - 2 No Armor Skin)

+7 to Damage ( -1 because no longer achieving +5 Blade Thirst [+4 instead] - 1 because lower STR - 1 FE bonus + 4 Epic Weapon Specialization + 6 avg Sneak Attack [2d6]).

Ability to Utilize Epic Traps. In my experience, Ranger works best as an ambush predator. Quickly close the gap and deal high damage before they can retaliate. Much like rogues. When it comes to PvP, for this purpose, Epic Traps are a great tool. You need rogue levels to deal with any trap with a DC over 40.

Detection Skills. Favored Enemy bonuses are at +4. It's part of the Ranger's shtick to be a good Detector, whether it be a keen nose or sharp eyes. Their FE's reflect this, and when combined with Learned Enemies, it's fairly easy to qualify for all PC races as your FE. Without them, thieves sneak behind you into the quarter, and Shadow Dancers give you the dance of death. The Ranger's fourth circle Polymorph can be useful for this as well, using Umberhulk shape, though Ork's build only had 13 WIS, meaning it misses out on 4th circle Ranger spells (among them, Freedom Of Movement).

Animal Empathy Henchmen. The Ranger pokemon mini-game. Trying to find the best critters to Animal Empathy and turn into your Henchmen. With the right ones, this can greatly increase your damage output, but it's hard to quantify, so I haven't included it in the original damage calculation.


STR 18
DEX 14
CON 10 (12, as gnoll)
WIS 14
INT 12 (14 with gift)
CHA 6

Skill Points: 246 -- 7 skills maxed out, with another halved.
Heal, Discipline, Spot, Set Trap, Disable Trap, Animal Empathy, Tumble (30) leaving 18 points to be split among UMD (7) and Search (11). Now, considering this build is Strength based, it's not great at Stealth. Fighter levels also hurts for skill-points. This is why I haven't included any stealth skills. But, you could switch out the Trap skills for stealth, if you preferred it instead.

L1: Ranger (01) Exotic Prof
L2: Ranger (02)
L3: Ranger (03) Expertise
L4: Ranger (04)
L5: Ranger (05)
L6: Ranger (06) Imp. Expertise
L7: Ranger (07)
L8: Ranger (08)
L9: Ranger (09) Weapon Focus
L10: Ranger(10)
L11: Ranger (11)
L12: Ranger (12) Knockdown
L13: Ranger (13)
L14: Ranger (14)
L15: Ranger (15) Blindfight
L16: Ranger (16)
L17: Fighter (1) Dodge
L18: Fighter (2) Imp. Crit, Lightning Reflexes
L19: Fighter (3)
L20: Fighter (4) Weapon Specialization
L21: Ranger (17) Epic Focus Discipline
L22: Ranger (18)
L23: Ranger (19)
L24: Ranger (20) Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Prowess
L25: Rogue (1)
L26: Rogue (2)
L27: Rogue (3) Great Strength I
L28: Fighter (5)
L29: Fighter (6) Epic Weapon Specialization
L30: Ranger (21) Bane of Enemies
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 pm
I, too, struggle to know what is written in books without first reading them.

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BoltNRun
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:02 am

Wow, thank you both for your time in making the builds. I'm not sure which I will actually use when the time comes; I willd efinitely be considering each of them. Still this is very kind of you both.

I never intended for this gnoll ranger to actually be that stealthy honestly. I mean I know he will have some but like I said I kind of see him more of a dervish and beast master lol. I will definitely be taking animal empathy but I am not so sure about the trap skills.

You said that the main difference is +4 more AC. What is my AC going to look like actually? I know that it won't be that high but I think without imp. exp. on that it'd be resting around 42?

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