Archery AoO

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Oshido
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Archery AoO

Post by Oshido » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:29 am

Been thinking on playing a dedicated archer. Either a goblin cookie cutter ranger, monk, rogue or a Mongolian style horse archer. Both seem pretty fun. The horse archer would be ranger, AA, bard or rogue.
A couple questions.
What are current archers doing about attacks of opportunity? Getting cornered is inevitable. Are people just sucking it up and eating the AoO or switching to melee? Anyone taking dodge and mobility, possibly spring attack?
Any ideas on the horse archer for builds?
Was thinking 12 ranger, 15 AA, 3 rogue with mounted feats and short bow( I know I know, but no one in history has ever been able to shoot a real long bow mounted well.) I build bows, best traditional long bow I ever built was 6 foot tall and 120 pounds to draw. Would never happen on a horse.
:evil:

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Kenji
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Re: Archery AoO

Post by Kenji » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:15 am

Keep in mind that Spring Attack doesn't work with mounted combat, but dodge and mobility will help! Also, I've found that well over half of the pre-epic contents are underground or inside buildings where you can't ride horses, it's a good idea to invest a little into hide/move silently in order to buff it up with Camouflage/One with the Land for sneaking around at times.

Regarding AoO on ranged, I often find myself doing the following depending on the situation:

Overall:
I never switch to melee, kiting or standing ground with a ranged weapon at hand is often my choice.

Soloing:
If it's a single enemy (that you drew from a distance, only aggroing 1 at a time), I'd fight it from max distance and slowly barrage it to death, if it's near death by the time it reaches me, I don't bother taking out melee, just gun it down.

If it's a single enemy, but boss-like with more health or annoying 1-hit death attacks, speed potion + kite is the way to go.

If it's a whole mob (at transition, etc), kiting is the way to go. That or improved invisibility and run to safety.

Grouping:
If a -guard is provided, I always keep my weapon in hand and remain in distance of my protector.

If the protector is attacked by multiple opponents to the point that he is surrounded, you'll want to ask him to remain still and turn on expertise while you pick off stragglers and kite them.

If no -guard is provided, but you have melee frontliners, stand behind them and start attacking, drawing attention and aggro, thus allowing the frontline melee to proc AoO on the enemies, as well. Just dance around in circles, then.

If you're grouping with squishier builds such as TF or Bard, -guard them, and hope you don't get overwhelmed :mrgreen:

Really, though. If you have enough Ranger levels, you can always Ultravision a TF Sorc and yourself, while the TF Sorc spams darkness. This way, much of the content gets trivialized all the way up to late epics.

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Oshido
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Re: Archery AoO

Post by Oshido » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:51 am

Nice.
Wondering how the ride bonus to mounted speed(10 to 30% depending on breed) and blinding speed interact.
Would go with hide and ms.
Though I can't corner sneak to save my life.
:evil:

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Re: Archery AoO

Post by Kenji » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:04 am

I believe the cap is at 150%, since there are no monk levels to uncap. It's the downtime of haste/blinding speed that maintains a little speed boost is great for horse riding. That and ranged get extra +2 AB if both Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery feats are invested. To tell you the truth, I find it a lot easier to kite on horseback than on foot when using ranged (i.e., attacking and get the first flurry off, then immediately run back). There's less stutter on horseback when doing so.

Here are some other builds you can consider, I usually build most of my builds around Horse riding with mounted feats and ride skills taken into consideration.

All Things Ranged

For the build 12 Ranger/15AA/3Rogue, the general consensus is that one should avoid using Ranger to go into AA. But if you'd like to go for a build that makes sense for RP (ranger's tracking and animal language, rogue's thieves' cant and skullduggery, AA for being an excellent marksman), then by all means!

12 Ranger provides damask bundles, which is a QoL improvement. But since the template update, the bundle crafting portion has been streamlined where you only need one crafting skill in order to craft the bundles.

There's also Evasion, which is provided at 9th level ranger and 2nd level rogue. From a mechanical point of view, it might be better to take Bard for Spellcraft dump for an effective +3 uni save. The 2d6 Sneak Attack is often unreliable for ranged due to distance constraints.

Lastly, It takes 7 or 8 levels from Ranger 4 to Ranger 12 to achieve the +2 damage, which can be achieved by 4 levels of AA. Meanwhile, the extra 4 levels of AA also provides +2 AB, which is huge in my book.

On the plus side, Ranger levels provide a lot of skill points and extra 3 feats (lvl9 gives Called Shot), which makes the life of an AA easier.

Still, 12/15/3 is just as viable, and it should actually make your early leveling a lot easier compared to some of the more optimal AA builds thanks to early animal companion + horse. (horses are OP early game)

DeflectiveQuestion
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Re: Archery AoO

Post by DeflectiveQuestion » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:28 pm

Oshido wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:29 am
Been thinking on playing a dedicated archer. Either a goblin cookie cutter ranger, monk, rogue or a Mongolian style horse archer. Both seem pretty fun. The horse archer would be ranger, AA, bard or rogue.
A couple questions.
What are current archers doing about attacks of opportunity? Getting cornered is inevitable. Are people just sucking it up and eating the AoO or switching to melee? Anyone taking dodge and mobility, possibly spring attack?
Any ideas on the horse archer for builds?
Was thinking 12 ranger, 15 AA, 3 rogue with mounted feats and short bow( I know I know, but no one in history has ever been able to shoot a real long bow mounted well.) I build bows, best traditional long bow I ever built was 6 foot tall and 120 pounds to draw. Would never happen on a horse.
Actually, there is evidence of the English longbowmen doing this during the Hundred Years' War https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcpHB-f ... ature=grec), as well as Welsh longbowmen doing so in hit-and run attacks during the Welsh-English wars. In fact, the Samurai of Japan were originally horse archers, armed with the Yumi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yumi) [Yes, Wikipedia, but it's accurate and simple to read], and the Yari (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yari). It was only later that the Samurai became associated with swordsmanship. As a history major, it is my responsibility to educate.

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Oshido
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Re: Archery AoO

Post by Oshido » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:36 pm

Ya. The definition of long bow is pretty loose. The Yumi are an off center concept and extremely long. The arrow was shot no more then a third from the bottom. Lending itself to mounted archery though awkward and gangly. The design of the yumi suffers from energy storage to transference. The longer the bow the more accurate the shot though.
The Welsh bow and similar were based off long bow design but shorter and could not reach the same draw weight as siege longbows. Still used and very much resembling Norse longbows.
Mostly used because bow technology was limited.
The pinnacle of the long bow bends at the handle, easily 6 foot in length as a start, shoots half inch dowel for arrow shafts with Bodkin points for armor piercing. THEY were in the 200 pound draw weight range. No one shot them from horseback.
Chinese and Asian shortbow design was far superior in energy transference. The sinew, wood, horn design with with static tips meant long arrows shot from short bows and reaching the same draw weight as the siege long bow.

I once built a 7 foot white cedar long bow with 30 pounds draw. I could have shot it from a horse but effectively?
I also build a 3 foot birch bow in long bow design, draw was 40 pounds, legal to hunt deer with, but effectively?
Love archery history, the Welsh and most of Europe made subpar bows though, until the Long bow found it's proper place shooting heavy, long arrows.
My friend who is the heavy weight arm wrestling champion of the world, could not draw my 225 pound long bow from standing. If it was 50 pounds sure, put him on a horse.
:evil:

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Oshido
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Re: Archery AoO

Post by Oshido » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:52 pm

The Yari, while being Japanese, is a spear with a straight blade sharpened on both sides.
:evil:

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Re: Archery AoO

Post by DeflectiveQuestion » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:22 pm

Oshido wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:52 pm
The Yari, while being Japanese, is a spear with a straight blade sharpened on both sides.
You are correct. The Yumi, then the yari, then the tachi, in that order, were the preferences for samurai prior to the Sengoku Jidai era.
The katana kame to replace the tachi as samurai moved away from being horse archers. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yari), (https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily ... d-archery/)

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Re: Archery AoO

Post by DeflectiveQuestion » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:33 pm

Oshido wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:36 pm
Ya. The definition of long bow is pretty loose. The Yumi are an off center concept and extremely long. The arrow was shot no more then a third from the bottom. Lending itself to mounted archery though awkward and gangly. The design of the yumi suffers from energy storage to transference. The longer the bow the more accurate the shot though.
The Welsh bow and similar were based off long bow design but shorter and could not reach the same draw weight as siege longbows. Still used and very much resembling Norse longbows.
Mostly used because bow technology was limited.
The pinnacle of the long bow bends at the handle, easily 6 foot in length as a start, shoots half inch dowel for arrow shafts with Bodkin points for armor piercing. THEY were in the 200 pound draw weight range. No one shot them from horseback.
Chinese and Asian shortbow design was far superior in energy transference. The sinew, wood, horn design with with static tips meant long arrows shot from short bows and reaching the same draw weight as the siege long bow.

I once built a 7 foot white cedar long bow with 30 pounds draw. I could have shot it from a horse but effectively?
I also build a 3 foot birch bow in long bow design, draw was 40 pounds, legal to hunt deer with, but effectively?
Love archery history, the Welsh and most of Europe made subpar bows though, until the Long bow found it's proper place shooting heavy, long arrows.
My friend who is the heavy weight arm wrestling champion of the world, could not draw my 225 pound long bow from standing. If it was 50 pounds sure, put him on a horse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow
"Estimates for the draw of these bows varies considerably. Before the recovery of the Mary Rose, Count M. Mildmay Stayner, Recorder of the British Long Bow Society, estimated the bows of the Medieval period drew 90–110 pounds-force (400–490 newtons), maximum, and Mr. W.F. Paterson, Chairman of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries, believed the weapon had a supreme draw weight of only 80–90 lbf (360–400 N).[2] Other sources suggest significantly higher draw weights. The original draw forces of examples from the Mary Rose are estimated by Robert Hardy at 150–160 lbf (670–710 N) at a 30-inch (76.2 cm) draw length; the full range of draw weights was between 100–185 lbf (440–820 N).[9] The 30-inch (76.2 cm) draw length was used because that is the length allowed by the arrows commonly found on the Mary Rose.
A modern longbow's draw is typically 60 lbf (270 N) or less, and by modern convention measured at 28 inches (71.1 cm). Historically, hunting bows usually had draw weights of 50–60 lbf (220–270 N), which is enough for all but the very largest game and which most reasonably fit adults can manage with practice. Today, there are few modern longbowmen capable of using 180–185 lbf (800–820 N) bows accurately"

https://www.thoughtco.com/hundred-years ... ow-2361241
"Longbow - Training:
Though an effective weapon, the longbow required extensive training to use effectively. To make sure that deep pool of archers always existed in England, the population, both rich and poor, were encouraged to hone their skills. This was furthered by the government through edicts such King Edward I's ban on sports on Sunday which was designed to ensure that his people practiced archery. As the draw force on the longbow was a hefty 160–180 lbf, archers in training worked their way up to the weapon. The level of training required to be an effective archer discouraged other nations from adopting the weapon."

http://www.themiddleages.net/longbow.html
"Longbows were difficult to master because the draw-weight often exceeded 50kg. Considerable practice was required to produce the swift and effective fire combat required. Skeletons of longbow archers are recognizably deformed, with enlarged left arms, and often bone spurs on left wrists, left shoulders and right fingers."
There is evidence of the British and Welsh both using longbows from horseback, both written and visual, that are contemporaneous with the period.

Also, who is the friend?

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Oshido
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Re: Archery AoO

Post by Oshido » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:08 pm

Not sure where my last post went but oh well.
Ya the Mary Rose find was amazing. Hardy was a lucky guy and knew his stuff. Yes , 150 to 200 lbs of draw is the consensus after comparing the find to modern historical replication. Pretty sure the last time I check the record for the English long bow drawn and shot was 240 lbs, 30 in by half inch ARROW. These bows could not be shot from horseback. Hunting version types we're, like you said, 50 to 75 pounds and still are. A lot of the hunting longbows were actually flat climbed with a static handle. Still lumped into the long bow category for lamens terms.
With a loose string I can get my 225 lb, English round belly bow about half draw. My buddy is Devon Larratt. Remarkably strong in every sense. Which goes to show specific training goes a long way. At 6 foot 6 I built the bow for him. He couldn't even budge it. The bow is 6 foot Brazilian iron wood backed with slippery elm.

What amazes me is the Asiatic bows though. War bows in the same range of 150 to 200 lbs draw, same 30 inch ARROW but thinner, Half the size or less then the long bow, but storing and transferring a significant amount more energy then the long bow. Shot from horseback easily.
:evil:

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Re: Archery AoO

Post by DeflectiveQuestion » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:48 pm

Yes. I am merely putting forth that there is evidence for mounted English longbowmen, using longbows of between 90 and 180lbs.


By todays standards? Rough. But a British yeoman would laugh in the face of most modern professional longbowmen.


Much like the European Knights of old would find it quite humorous our attempts at swordsmanship, or the Franks of antiquity would scoff at modern-day axe-throwing.

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Re: Archery AoO

Post by The Kriv » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:22 am

Oshido wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:29 am

What are current archers doing about attacks of opportunity? Getting cornered is inevitable. Are people just sucking it up and eating the AoO or switching to melee?
On my dedicated archer, the RP is that if it is close enough to get an AOO off, it should be dead before it gets a second chance. If it isn't... then you are over your head. I play my Archer as party-support. A glass cannon. At level 25, I currently don't even use enchanted armor.
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Re: Archery AoO

Post by Durvayas » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:05 pm

Archer in melee? Three words.

Called. Shot. Arm.

Tried and true method to surviving as an archer in melee, is to called shot the enemy's AB into the ground, and use healkits for when they occasionally roll a crit.

But since any archer worth their salt should have called shot,use called shot leg to slow the enemy down for effective kiting.
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