Which spells can be used effectively with lower DC?

Discussions related to character builds and mechanics may occur here.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

Post Reply
blksabbath74
Posts: 186
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:01 pm

Which spells can be used effectively with lower DC?

Post by blksabbath74 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:11 pm

Specifically for a Level 20 Bard in the Cookie Cutter Bardadin Build...

Obviously heals...

Buffs will be easily dispelled, and attack spells are probably right out.

How would you build the spellbook of a Bardadin?

User avatar
Baron Saturday
Posts: 2364
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:34 am

Re: Which spells can be used effectively with lower DC?

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:14 pm

Because of how dispels work, you actually don't want to use bard spells at all. The reason is a bizarre thing called mundane caster level. Basically, so long as you don't cast spells, any buffs from wands or potions resist dispels as if cast by a character of your TOTAL level. If, however, you cast any spells, the wand and potion buffs and be dispelled as if they were cast at the level on the item.

For example:
Say you've got a level 30 cookie-cutter bardadin. You buff yourself with Bull's Strength from a wand (which casts a level 15 Bull's Strength). If you haven't cast any spells this reset, the Bull's Strength will resist dispels as if it were cast by a level 30 mage. If, however, you HAVE cast any spells since the last reset, the Bull's Strength will only be level 15. This is even more pronounced with potions, most of which have a caster level of 3.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain

blksabbath74
Posts: 186
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:01 pm

Re: Which spells can be used effectively with lower DC?

Post by blksabbath74 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:58 am

Baron Saturday wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:14 pm
Because of how dispels work, you actually don't want to use bard spells at all. The reason is a bizarre thing called mundane caster level. Basically, so long as you don't cast spells, any buffs from wands or potions resist dispels as if cast by a character of your TOTAL level. If, however, you cast any spells, the wand and potion buffs and be dispelled as if they were cast at the level on the item.

For example:
Say you've got a level 30 cookie-cutter bardadin. You buff yourself with Bull's Strength from a wand (which casts a level 15 Bull's Strength). If you haven't cast any spells this reset, the Bull's Strength will resist dispels as if it were cast by a level 30 mage. If, however, you HAVE cast any spells since the last reset, the Bull's Strength will only be level 15. This is even more pronounced with potions, most of which have a caster level of 3.
Thanks, good to know. Does that apply to scrolls?

User avatar
Baron Saturday
Posts: 2364
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:34 am

Re: Which spells can be used effectively with lower DC?

Post by Baron Saturday » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:02 am

Yup. Applies to any item that casts spells, so far as I know.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain

blksabbath74
Posts: 186
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:01 pm

Re: Which spells can be used effectively with lower DC?

Post by blksabbath74 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:30 am

Baron Saturday wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:02 am
Yup. Applies to any item that casts spells, so far as I know.
Damn, now I am rethinking this whole build...would I be better off making it a Battle Bard with 6 levels of Fighter and 4 of Rogue, and making Charisma a dump stat?

If I am going to be casting from UMD anyway...

User avatar
WanderingPoet
Posts: 759
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:51 am

Re: Which spells can be used effectively with lower DC?

Post by WanderingPoet » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:36 am

Baron Saturday wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:14 pm
Because of how dispels work, you actually don't want to use bard spells at all. The reason is a bizarre thing called mundane caster level. Basically, so long as you don't cast spells, any buffs from wands or potions resist dispels as if cast by a character of your TOTAL level. If, however, you cast any spells, the wand and potion buffs and be dispelled as if they were cast at the level on the item.

For example:
Say you've got a level 30 cookie-cutter bardadin. You buff yourself with Bull's Strength from a wand (which casts a level 15 Bull's Strength). If you haven't cast any spells this reset, the Bull's Strength will resist dispels as if it were cast by a level 30 mage. If, however, you HAVE cast any spells since the last reset, the Bull's Strength will only be level 15. This is even more pronounced with potions, most of which have a caster level of 3.
I don't think this is how this works, at least not from experience. I've had a level 30 with 24 levels of a caster class and the spells from items have been more resistant to dispels.

For example: Level 30(24CL) casts bulls strength, cats grace, and five other spells. Then uses wand to get negative energy protection(15), and barkskin (12) - on dispel I have never seen the item spells be removed, only my cast spells. Now if the CL against dispels was 9-12 levels lower than my CL I'd expect to lose those instantly and have a low chance to lose my own spells.

I mean, I've lost a dozen spells in a single dispel before but not lost the multiple item spells with a low item CL, even items with a CL3!
Path_of_Play wrote:Fear, intimidation, anger - All these, the tyrant's tools.
Laughter, encouragement, play - not simply just for fools.
These tools reveal,
More is learned,
From another in an hour of play,
Than in a year of contention.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Which spells can be used effectively with lower DC?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:01 am

WanderingPoet wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:36 am
I don't think this is how this works, at least not from experience. I've had a level 30 with 24 levels of a caster class and the spells from items have been more resistant to dispels.

For example: Level 30(24CL) casts bulls strength, cats grace, and five other spells. Then uses wand to get negative energy protection(15), and barkskin (12) - on dispel I have never seen the item spells be removed, only my cast spells. Now if the CL against dispels was 9-12 levels lower than my CL I'd expect to lose those instantly and have a low chance to lose my own spells.

I mean, I've lost a dozen spells in a single dispel before but not lost the multiple item spells with a low item CL, even items with a CL3!
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Breach

I would hazard a guess that you've never seen barkskin go away because it's not on the breach list, and a scroll-cast mord's uses the scroll's caster level for its dispel check. Negative energy protection is 24th on the list - in this case your character has 24 caster levels, and very likely has six or more spells earlier on the breach list that would get stripped before the wanded negative energy protection even with a mordenkainen's scroll.

No one using item-based dispels is throwing actual dispels- usually it's lesser breach wands (2 spells, single target) or mord's scrolls (which breach 6 on single target or 2 on AoE), so in most circumstances even a moderate item-caster level will withstand the accompanying dispel check (if any). Other high level casters are the only ones that will be able to reliably take those spells off of you in a single cast when you're warded up.

The dispel check is also two points (10%) in favor of the defender by default coding (dispel DC's are 12 + caster level, while your dispel check is 1d20 + caster level (with varying caps based on spell selection)).

So at minimum caster level 17 (mordenkainen's disjunction scroll) vs 27 (NEP) and 24 (barkskin), there's still a pretty decent chance neither will be stripped from the dispel itself.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

User avatar
WanderingPoet
Posts: 759
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:51 am

Re: Which spells can be used effectively with lower DC?

Post by WanderingPoet » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:00 pm

I'm talking more PvE than PvP - those times when NPCs dispel you 5 times in a fight and you've lost half your buffs - not Breach. Definitely agree if it was Breach - but breach doesn't care about CL anyhow.

For example - something that happened a few days ago. I went to the Umbrick as a level 24 druid, cast my own barkskin, regen, spell resistance, bulls strength etc. I also cast mage armour from a wand with a CL of 3. I got dispelled 3 times by the mages there and lost 5 spells but never lost the mage armour.

I would think that if the CL of mage armour was but a low level 3 then we'd see "dispel check of 1d20 + 1 per caster level (to a maximum of +22) against a DC of 12 + the spell effect's caster level." dispelling mage armour every time. Assuming duegar mages are level 22+ without abj focuses, they'd have 1d20+22 vs DC 15 which'd be a guaranteed removable (or 5% if nat 1 = no removal).

Similarily on a bard/ranger I've not lost a level 12 barkskin from wands/elder dream spear which would have a DC of 24 - so a 10% chance of not being dispelled.

I'm more than happy to accept I'm wrong, but this just seems to contradict?
Path_of_Play wrote:Fear, intimidation, anger - All these, the tyrant's tools.
Laughter, encouragement, play - not simply just for fools.
These tools reveal,
More is learned,
From another in an hour of play,
Than in a year of contention.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Which spells can be used effectively with lower DC?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:28 am

WanderingPoet wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:00 pm
I'm talking more PvE than PvP - those times when NPCs dispel you 5 times in a fight and you've lost half your buffs - not Breach. Definitely agree if it was Breach - but breach doesn't care about CL anyhow.
Are these mobs casting dispels or using dispels?

IIRC, sometimes spells are added to mobs as spell-like abilities so that they can exceed their spellbook limitations for specific things (like dispelling).

It's possible that if it's the latter, the mobs are getting a lower-level dispel than they might otherwise, since spell-like abilities are assigned fixed caster level values and tend not to use the creatures full CR for caster level.

I'm not looking for you to be wrong, just attempting to help find the missing piece - which is hopefully more likely than the entire dispel system being buggy on top of being handled awkwardly as sin. :lol:
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

User avatar
WanderingPoet
Posts: 759
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:51 am

Re: Which spells can be used effectively with lower DC?

Post by WanderingPoet » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:31 am

I'm not sure actually if it's casting or using them. That said if I'm dispelled with a low level CL dispel I'd still statistically lose all of my low CL (like mage armour) before losing my self casted level 24 spells, no?

Of course, this is very empirical and it's possible in the heat of combat I misread, or I just am weirdly lucky to keep weak spells and unlucky with my selfcast spells - I think we need to setup a test with a dispeller and someone using a variety of high CL spells with zoo potions at potion CL 3 and then have someone lesser dispel (so that the dispel CL remains low enough that the high level spells won't generally be zapped).
Path_of_Play wrote:Fear, intimidation, anger - All these, the tyrant's tools.
Laughter, encouragement, play - not simply just for fools.
These tools reveal,
More is learned,
From another in an hour of play,
Than in a year of contention.

User avatar
Baron Saturday
Posts: 2364
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:34 am

Re: Which spells can be used effectively with lower DC?

Post by Baron Saturday » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:43 pm

I have been corrected, and apologize for misleading folks: Once you cast a spell, item-cast spells resist dispels as though cast by someone with your CASTER level instead of character level. The level on the item never comes into play in regards to dispel resistance. That squares with what WanderingPoet has experienced, and frankly just makes a lot more sense.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain

Post Reply