Alternate Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

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blksabbath74
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Alternate Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by blksabbath74 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:05 pm

Thanks in advance!

Cleric(27), Bard(3), Human

STR: 17 (15+gift) (24)
DEX: 8
CON: 14
WIS: 18 (16+gift) (19)
INT: 14
CHA: 8

Human: (Quick to Master)

01: Cleric(1): Spell Focus: Transmutation, Greater Spell Focus: Transmutation, Domain War, Domain Travel
02: Cleric(2)
03: Cleric(3): Weapon Focus Spear
04: Cleric(4) +1 Strength
05: Cleric(5)
06: Cleric(6): Expertise
07: Cleric(7)
08: Cleric(8) +1 Strength
09: Cleric(9): Improved Expertise
10: Cleric(10)
11: Cleric(11)
12: Cleric(12): +1 Strength, Extend Spell
13: Cleric(13)
14: Cleric(14)
15: Cleric(15): Improved Critical
16: Cleric(16) +1 Wisdom
17: Cleric(17)
18: Cleric(18): Blind Fight
19: Cleric(19)
20: Cleric(20) +1 Strength
21: Cleric(21): Epic Weapon Focus
22: Cleric(22)
23: Cleric(23): ESF: Transmutation
24: Cleric(24): +1 Strength, Great Strength 1
25: Cleric(25)
26: Cleric(26): Armor Skin
27: Cleric(27): Epic Spell: Dragon Knight
28: Bard(1) +1 Strength
29: Bard(2)
30: Bard(3): ESF: Discipline

Concentration 33
Discipline 33
Heal 26
Spellcraft 33
Tumble 30
UMD 16
Last edited by blksabbath74 on Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:30 am, edited 3 times in total.

Astral
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Re: Questions about Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by Astral » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:50 pm

blksabbath74 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:05 pm
Is there a reason to take 3 levels of Bard over 3 levels of Rogue?
Different skill selection and bard allows you to pick magic related feats when rogue doesnt. Also because bards access discipline it means you dont need to take 4th fighter at lvl 30 to max dicipline (while also needing the 4th fighter lvl to be on a feat lvl so you can take both weapon specialization and it's following epic feat at the same time. taking bard means you can take your 4th fighter feat at lvl 24 and then you can take magic related feats at lvl 27 and 30 when your spellcraft rank is higher and you have more cleric lvls and thus more magic epic feats in total)

The reason to actually take rogue is because it gives access to search/disarm/lock (but that's more of a quality of life thing because you dont ~need~ rogue lvls to unlock epic loot containers and disarm traps) and most importantly, Evasion (but again, it's more of a quality of life thing since your reflex save is not very high on a battle cleric to make a really good use of this feat). I'd go with bard personally. Seems to give slightly more than rogue in total.
blksabbath74 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:05 pm
How big of a deal is Extend Spell.
Very big deal. Dont play any cleric without it.
blksabbath74 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:05 pm
why Conjuration? What does that do?
Makes your Summon Creature 1-9 and EDK stronger and raises your DC of the Storm of vengeance which really helps you in tough situations. And you can also -yoink people! Alternatively, Transmutation would be just important for a battlecleric and I'd really try to take both of them. Abjuration is nice, specially since the battlecleric's weakness is dispells, but not enough feats to take a third school.
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Maladus
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Re: Questions about Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by Maladus » Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:09 am

I just want to point out for Astral that the current cookie cutter battle cleric is 27/3

liver and bones
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Re: Questions about Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by liver and bones » Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:07 am

Biggest reason to go bard over rogue in that build is due to it offering 3 CL. Battleclerics are probably the class most subjected to a punishing dispel. With a total 30 CL (and possibly 32 with Arcane Defense), you'll survive a lot more often.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Questions about Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by Baron Saturday » Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:44 am

liver and bones wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:07 am
Biggest reason to go bard over rogue in that build is due to it offering 3 CL. Battleclerics are probably the class most subjected to a punishing dispel. With a total 30 CL (and possibly 32 with Arcane Defense), you'll survive a lot more often.
Alas, that is not how CL works. With a 27/3 split, cleric spells will be cast at level 27, while bard spells will be cast at 3. There is no addition of different class's CL except in specifically stated cases like the Pale Master CL bonuses. The reason for taking bard over rogue is the discipline skill dump, as clerics do not get discipline as a class skill.
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blksabbath74
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Re: Questions about Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by blksabbath74 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:26 am

Astral wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:50 pm
blksabbath74 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:05 pm
Is there a reason to take 3 levels of Bard over 3 levels of Rogue?
Different skill selection and bard allows you to pick magic related feats when rogue doesnt. Also because bards access discipline it means you dont need to take 4th fighter at lvl 30 to max dicipline (while also needing the 4th fighter lvl to be on a feat lvl so you can take both weapon specialization and it's following epic feat at the same time. taking bard means you can take your 4th fighter feat at lvl 24 and then you can take magic related feats at lvl 27 and 30 when your spellcraft rank is higher and you have more cleric lvls and thus more magic epic feats in total)

The reason to actually take rogue is because it gives access to search/disarm/lock (but that's more of a quality of life thing because you dont ~need~ rogue lvls to unlock epic loot containers and disarm traps) and most importantly, Evasion (but again, it's more of a quality of life thing since your reflex save is not very high on a battle cleric to make a really good use of this feat). I'd go with bard personally. Seems to give slightly more than rogue in total.
blksabbath74 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:05 pm
How big of a deal is Extend Spell.
Very big deal. Dont play any cleric without it.
blksabbath74 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:05 pm
why Conjuration? What does that do?
Makes your Summon Creature 1-9 and EDK stronger and raises your DC of the Storm of vengeance which really helps you in tough situations. And you can also -yoink people! Alternatively, Transmutation would be just important for a battlecleric and I'd really try to take both of them. Abjuration is nice, specially since the battlecleric's weakness is dispells, but not enough feats to take a third school.
Which Cleric spells are worth extending?

blksabbath74
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Re: Questions about Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by blksabbath74 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:28 am

Baron Saturday wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:44 am
liver and bones wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:07 am
Biggest reason to go bard over rogue in that build is due to it offering 3 CL. Battleclerics are probably the class most subjected to a punishing dispel. With a total 30 CL (and possibly 32 with Arcane Defense), you'll survive a lot more often.
Alas, that is not how CL works. With a 27/3 split, cleric spells will be cast at level 27, while bard spells will be cast at 3. There is no addition of different class's CL except in specifically stated cases like the Pale Master CL bonuses. The reason for taking bard over rogue is the discipline skill dump, as clerics do not get discipline as a class skill.
That makes alot of sense...no point in selling out Discipline for a few thief skills...

blksabbath74
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Re: Questions about Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by blksabbath74 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:40 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:44 am
liver and bones wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:07 am
Biggest reason to go bard over rogue in that build is due to it offering 3 CL. Battleclerics are probably the class most subjected to a punishing dispel. With a total 30 CL (and possibly 32 with Arcane Defense), you'll survive a lot more often.
Alas, that is not how CL works. With a 27/3 split, cleric spells will be cast at level 27, while bard spells will be cast at 3. There is no addition of different class's CL except in specifically stated cases like the Pale Master CL bonuses. The reason for taking bard over rogue is the discipline skill dump, as clerics do not get discipline as a class skill.
How much of a step down would it be to use a Morningstar?

I notice that only bronze morningstars are available on the wiki.

Beyond that, though, it offers 1d8 damage of the bludgeoning/piercing type, so it doesn't seem like that bad of a weapon.

If I used a Morningstar, I could take Weapon Focus earlier, instead of weapon proficiency, Epic Weapon Focus at 21, and have an extra Epic Feat.

I want to take the domains of Travel and Animal, and then take SF, GSF and ESF Transmutation instead of SF and GF Conjuation.

Is that a workable build, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

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Re: Questions about Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by Skibbles » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:57 pm


Which Cleric spells are worth extending?
Pretty much all of them, especially for dungeon diving.

Extend spell isn't just about extending spells though. It only costs one higher level to extend a spell, and this allows you to have far greater mobility in your spellbook.

For example, without extend spell, you can have about 5 divine power (which is mandatory for many fights). With extend spell you can have 10, and half of them are double duration. Or you can free up slots on one circle by extending them higher to make room for others.

Extend spell is mandatory for all casters in my opinion.
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Questions about Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by Baron Saturday » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:36 pm

blksabbath74 wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:40 pm
How much of a step down would it be to use a Morningstar?

I notice that only bronze morningstars are available on the wiki.

Beyond that, though, it offers 1d8 damage of the bludgeoning/piercing type, so it doesn't seem like that bad of a weapon.

If I used a Morningstar, I could take Weapon Focus earlier, instead of weapon proficiency, Epic Weapon Focus at 21, and have an extra Epic Feat.

I want to take the domains of Travel and Animal, and then take SF, GSF and ESF Transmutation instead of SF and GF Conjuation.

Is that a workable build, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
ESF Transmutation works fine on a battlecleric, but is best when paired with the War domain. One of the domain spells is Aura of Vitality, which has its duration buffed from 1 round/level to 1 turn/level if you have ESF Trans.

Regarding morningstars, they're pretty lackluster. The most important stat on weapons is the critical range and multiplier, and morningstars have the worst of both, 20 x2. Contrary to expectations, base damage is pretty much irrelevant. The average difference between a morningstar and a dagger (to pick another simple weapon) is only 2, which matters very little when you're hitting for 30-plus - and the dagger will ultimately do MORE damage, because it has a 19-20 crit range. I doubt that the double damage type of the morningstar is enough to make up for its weaknesses. If you're really set on simple weapons, I might recommend the spear instead - on Arelith can be used in 1 hand with a shield in the offhand, and it has a x3 crit mod, so while you won't crit super often, when you do it will be fairly noticeable.

Quality of the weapon is literally irrelevant to a cleric, as they'll be using GMW or another weapon buff on a bronze weapon anyhow.
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blksabbath74
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Re: Questions about Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by blksabbath74 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:58 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:36 pm
blksabbath74 wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:40 pm
How much of a step down would it be to use a Morningstar?

I notice that only bronze morningstars are available on the wiki.

Beyond that, though, it offers 1d8 damage of the bludgeoning/piercing type, so it doesn't seem like that bad of a weapon.

If I used a Morningstar, I could take Weapon Focus earlier, instead of weapon proficiency, Epic Weapon Focus at 21, and have an extra Epic Feat.

I want to take the domains of Travel and Animal, and then take SF, GSF and ESF Transmutation instead of SF and GF Conjuation.

Is that a workable build, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
ESF Transmutation works fine on a battlecleric, but is best when paired with the War domain. One of the domain spells is Aura of Vitality, which has its duration buffed from 1 round/level to 1 turn/level if you have ESF Trans.

Regarding morningstars, they're pretty lackluster. The most important stat on weapons is the critical range and multiplier, and morningstars have the worst of both, 20 x2. Contrary to expectations, base damage is pretty much irrelevant. The average difference between a morningstar and a dagger (to pick another simple weapon) is only 2, which matters very little when you're hitting for 30-plus - and the dagger will ultimately do MORE damage, because it has a 19-20 crit range. I doubt that the double damage type of the morningstar is enough to make up for its weaknesses. If you're really set on simple weapons, I might recommend the spear instead - on Arelith can be used in 1 hand with a shield in the offhand, and it has a x3 crit mod, so while you won't crit super often, when you do it will be fairly noticeable.

Quality of the weapon is literally irrelevant to a cleric, as they'll be using GMW or another weapon buff on a bronze weapon anyhow.
Awesome! Perfect.

So how does this look?

Cleric(27), Bard(3), Human

STR: 17 (15+gift) (24)
DEX: 8
CON: 14
WIS: 18 (16+gift) (19)
INT: 14
CHA: 8

Human: (Quick to Master)

01: Cleric(1): Spell Focus: Transmutation, Greater Spell Focus: Transmutation, Domain War, Domain Travel
02: Cleric(2)
03: Cleric(3): Weapon Focus Spear
04: Cleric(4) +1 Strength
05: Cleric(5)
06: Cleric(6): Expertise
07: Cleric(7)
08: Cleric(8) +1 Strength
09: Cleric(9): Improved Expertise
10: Cleric(10)
11: Cleric(11)
12: Cleric(12): +1 Strength, Extend Spell
13: Cleric(13)
14: Cleric(14)
15: Cleric(15): Improved Critical
16: Cleric(16) +1 Wisdom
17: Cleric(17)
18: Cleric(18): Blind Fight
19: Cleric(19)
20: Cleric(20) +1 Strength
21: Cleric(21): Epic Weapon Focus
22: Cleric(22)
23: Cleric(23): ESF: Transmutation
24: Cleric(24): +1 Strength, Great Strength 1
25: Cleric(25)
26: Cleric(26): Armor Skin
27: Cleric(27): Epic Spell: Dragon Knight
28: Bard(1) +1 Strength
29: Bard(2)
30: Bard(3): ESF: Discipline

Concentration 33
Discipline 33
Heal 26
Spellcraft 33
Tumble 30
UMD 16
Last edited by blksabbath74 on Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:55 am, edited 4 times in total.

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flower
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Re: Questions about Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by flower » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:05 pm

Epic discipline!

Epic discipline! Isntead great strenght... :roll:

blksabbath74
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Re: Questions about Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by blksabbath74 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:01 pm

flower wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:05 pm
Epic discipline!

Epic discipline! Isntead great strenght... :roll:
If I get rid of Great Strength, it ends up at 23...but I replaced Epic Prowess...

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Ork
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Re: Questions about Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by Ork » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:58 am

blksabbath74 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:01 pm
flower wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:05 pm
Epic discipline!

Epic discipline! Isntead great strenght... :roll:
If I get rid of Great Strength, it ends up at 23...but I replaced Epic Prowess...
Cleric L23 gives a bonus feat for either great wisdom or armor skin. At that level you'll take great wisdom to bump your wis to 19. You have the wisdom change, but not the feat labeled in your write up.

At level 4, take strength not wisdom.

blksabbath74
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Re: Questions about Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by blksabbath74 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:44 am

Ork wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:58 am
blksabbath74 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:01 pm
flower wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:05 pm
Epic discipline!

Epic discipline! Isntead great strenght... :roll:
If I get rid of Great Strength, it ends up at 23...but I replaced Epic Prowess...
Cleric L23 gives a bonus feat for either great wisdom or armor skin. At that level you'll take great wisdom to bump your wis to 19. You have the wisdom change, but not the feat labeled in your write up.

At level 4, take strength not wisdom.
Then I end up at Cleric level 17 without enough Wisdom to use level 9 spells till level 23. No thanks.

The whole point of swapping that around was to give me access to level 9 spells ASAP.

And what does it matter if I get rid of Great Strength if I have to exchange it for Great Wisdom? I still can't use it for ESF: Discipline.

The change at 23 was from where I copy-pasted the original build. I've removed it. This build will have Wisdom 19 from level 4.

I suppose I could swap +1 Wisdom to level 16 to gain the benefit of higher strength earlier...

Really, though, would it be worth giving up Armor Skin for Great Wisdom to get Wisdom up to 20?

I'll be casting Owl's Wisdom at 1d4+3.

Thoughts?

blksabbath74
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Re: Questions about Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by blksabbath74 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:35 pm

Astral wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:50 pm
blksabbath74 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:05 pm
Is there a reason to take 3 levels of Bard over 3 levels of Rogue?
Different skill selection and bard allows you to pick magic related feats when rogue doesnt. Also because bards access discipline it means you dont need to take 4th fighter at lvl 30 to max dicipline (while also needing the 4th fighter lvl to be on a feat lvl so you can take both weapon specialization and it's following epic feat at the same time. taking bard means you can take your 4th fighter feat at lvl 24 and then you can take magic related feats at lvl 27 and 30 when your spellcraft rank is higher and you have more cleric lvls and thus more magic epic feats in total)

The reason to actually take rogue is because it gives access to search/disarm/lock (but that's more of a quality of life thing because you dont ~need~ rogue lvls to unlock epic loot containers and disarm traps) and most importantly, Evasion (but again, it's more of a quality of life thing since your reflex save is not very high on a battle cleric to make a really good use of this feat). I'd go with bard personally. Seems to give slightly more than rogue in total.
blksabbath74 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:05 pm
How big of a deal is Extend Spell.
Very big deal. Dont play any cleric without it.
blksabbath74 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:05 pm
why Conjuration? What does that do?
Makes your Summon Creature 1-9 and EDK stronger and raises your DC of the Storm of vengeance which really helps you in tough situations. And you can also -yoink people! Alternatively, Transmutation would be just important for a battlecleric and I'd really try to take both of them. Abjuration is nice, specially since the battlecleric's weakness is dispells, but not enough feats to take a third school.
If you were going to go ESF: Transmutation/Conjuration, how would you do it? Where would you make the cuts?

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Ork
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Re: Alternate Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by Ork » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:36 am

On a low wisdom B.Cleric, your Circle 9 spells won't be impressive. Implosion will have a DC of 29 if you buff your soft wisdom. That won't be worth anything in a fight. However, this is your build. I'm here to just advise that pushing it to L23 won't be a huge loss. Especially since you can only spend your Epic Cleric Feats on three things: ESF: Trans, Armor Skin, Great Wisdom.

However, the change will only have a net benefit of +1 AB. Not really worth splitting hairs over for a B.Cleric. You do you, mang.

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Re: Alternate Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by blksabbath74 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:12 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:36 am
On a low wisdom B.Cleric, your Circle 9 spells won't be impressive. Implosion will have a DC of 29 if you buff your soft wisdom. That won't be worth anything in a fight. However, this is your build. I'm here to just advise that pushing it to L23 won't be a huge loss. Especially since you can only spend your Epic Cleric Feats on three things: ESF: Trans, Armor Skin, Great Wisdom.

However, the change will only have a net benefit of +1 AB. Not really worth splitting hairs over for a B.Cleric. You do you, mang.
So basically, not being a caster cleric...it isn't worth worrying about getting Wisdom to 20?

Also, was think about trying to get ESF Conjuration for Yoink and better summons. Thoughts?

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Re: Alternate Cookie Cutter Battle Cleric Build

Post by Ork » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:41 pm

On a B.Cleric you what the bare minimum wisdom. The only spells that are useful to you will not have DCs attached to them (i.e. divine power, divine favor, battletide, heal, etc.) There is really no advantage to gaining more than 19 wisdom.

Also conjuration is nice & will level you faster, but isn't necessary to have a good B.Cleric.

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