26 Fighter / 4 Bard or 25 Fighter / 5 Rogue

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Turokk
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26 Fighter / 4 Bard or 25 Fighter / 5 Rogue

Post by Turokk » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:47 am

New to the server. I like the fighter progression plus the feats galore. I don't know the mechanics of the server to strongly suggest one feat/class over another. I am wavering on three parts. First here is my build template.

PVE Player. Not into the PVP at all
Already level 4.
Race: Dwarf (Love Dwarves)
Abilities: Start (End)
STR: 18 (26) "18 + Gift(2) + Ability Increase(4) + Fighter Bonus(2)"
DEX: 8
CON: 17 (22) "17 + Gift(2) + Ability Increase(3)"
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 6
Elemental Damage resistance Gift
Fighter: 1-16 (Wanted to get the 4 attacks before dipping into a utility class)
Bard: 17-19 (Pre Epic, Spell, craft 22, +4 AC Tumble 20, UMD 20. Needed two extra points in UMD to make up for my ugliness "CHA")
Fighter: 20-28
Bard: 29
Fighter: 30


Skills:
Discipline: 33, Perform 11, Spell Craft 33, Tumble 31, UMD 22, Leftover 10
I read that discipline is pretty much required. Need 11 perform for the Bard Song -2 CHA Fugly.
The reason I went Bard is for the +4 WILL saves and Spellcraft. The song is a bonus.
Maxed Tumble and added one because I was not sure if the -1 DEX dropped my AC by 1 because tumble would drop below 30.
UMD looks to be 15-20 for most things according to the forums. Should I push it for a specific item?
Being a fighter / melee I am skeered about spells and mind control. Is spellcraft useful? Dwarf, Iron Will, Max Spellcraft, Luck of Heroes. I am pushing for those saves. Am I over reacting?

Feats:
Luck of Heroes, Expertise, Knockdown, Wpn Fcs (Grt Swd), Wpn Spec (Grt Swd), Power Attack, Cleave, Imp Crit (Grt Swd), Grt Clv, Imp KD, Iron Will, IE, Blind Fight, Disarm, Imp Disarm, 1 Unassigned Feat
Epic Feats:
Arm Skin, Epic DRx3, Epic Wpn Fcs, Epic Wpn Spec, Epic Prowess, Overwhelming Crit, 1 Unassigned Epic Feat

Are the disarms needed with a Great Sword?
What other feat should I take (Skill Fcs: Disc?)
Drop the Disarms and grap Wpn Fcs and Wpn Spc long sword when I need to go to Sword and Board?
Epic Skill Focus: Disc? Epic Will?
Drop an epic feat and grab 2 STR or some Damage Resistance?

Thinking of swapping Bard for Rogue and adding another level of Rogue (5) for the 3D6 SA after knocking them down or flanking. Plus also pick up evasion and Uncanny Dodge. Are those better than the defensiveness of Spellcraft and Will saves?

+40 Melee Attack (8 STR, 2 Fighter, 3 Wpn/E Wpn FCS, +2 -twohanded, +1 Epic Prowess, 24 BAB) No magic or buffs. I don't know all of the buffs and max great sword enahancements are.
29 AC, (10, +6 Tumble, +7 Full Plate (-1 Dex), +2 Fight Armor bonus, +2 Fighter Hemet Bonus, +2 Armor skin) 6 more with tower shield when it gets sketch.

The three wavering parts were:
Skills (How much UMD and is Spellcraft worth it?
Feats (2 unassigned, Disarms, Skill focus, Epic Will)
Class: Bard for the spell defense or Rogue for the 3D6 SA. I am leaning hard Bard for the saves and extra Epic Feat.

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Jack Oat
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Re: 26 Fighter / 4 Bard or 25 Fighter / 5 Rogue

Post by Jack Oat » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:04 pm

This is going to be painful for a few reasons, for you:
1) Greatsword means ditching a shield, means ditching AC you fairly badly need.
2) Your damage output, even with Greatsword, is going to be fairly low compared to other melee builds. You don't have any classes that deliver hard damage bonuses.
3) For your first character, you're going to struggle with this in mid-late content, and even some in early content.

I would recommend, since this is one of your first characters, playing the standard cookie-cutter 20/7/3 Fighter/Weaponmaster/Rogue build with sword + board, ideally a scimitar/rapier or maybe longsword if you do an Elf/Half Elf. This will allow you to function effectively in later-game content.

Another alternative, if you're feeling bolder, is to go for the cookie-cutter 23/4/3 Fighter/Paladin (or BG)/Rogue Brycer (or Anti-Brycer) build, again with sword + board.



I played a greatsword build as my first character, similar to yours. I wasn't able to do much of anything past level 10-ish. I wasn't an effective team member because my damage and AB weren't as high as my WM peers, I couldn't tank because I didn't have the AC to do so (even in Imp. Expertise, unless I switched to having a shield). Basically I couldn't do anything that other melee builds couldn't do better.


If you're absolutely insistent on going almost pureclass Fighter, I can't really offer you any advice that would be relevant. Bard, I guess, so you can get taunt and spellcraft? Rogue maybe to mitigate your low damage with Sneaks? In the end that won't matter greatly enough to be useful.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


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Baron Saturday
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Re: 26 Fighter / 4 Bard or 25 Fighter / 5 Rogue

Post by Baron Saturday » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:43 pm

Since this is your first character, I honestly wouldn't worry about it too much. You're gonna make mistakes and learn a lot about NWN and Arelith's systems. To answer a few questions you had:

- Tumble's bonus to AC only takes the number of ranks into consideration, not Dex modifiers or anything else.

- Spellcraft is very useful. Even if you don't take bard levels, I would suggest cross-classing into it. Unlike tumble, spellcraft DOES count ability and item modifiers for determining the save v. spells bonus.

- Having a decent will save is good, but clarity potions are abundant and cheap, so I wouldn't fret about it TOO much.

- Disarm is generally pretty useless in PvE, as most monsters are immune. It can be used for an AB boost against enemies with small or tiny weapons, but that's pretty niche and not worth 2 feats.

- With those two extra feats, and the one you hadn't decided on, if you were inclined to pick up another weapon, I would suggest WF, WS, and Improved Crit Battleaxe. Here's why: As a dwarf, you can use the dwarven waraxe without exotic proficiency, and any
battleaxe feats also count for the waraxe. Additionally, dwarves with a high forging craft skill can make and use a special +4 dwarven waraxe. For reference, most crafted weapons max out at +3 AB and +6 dmg. If you wanted, you could even drop greatsword entirely, since dwarves can use the -twohand command to treat the waraxe like a two-handed weapon.

- With that remaining epic feat, ESF Discipline is the way to go, on pretty much any character.

Jack isn't wrong that your damage will be relatively low compared to cookie-cutter builds like the WM, but I understand wanting to do your own thing for your first character.
Last edited by Baron Saturday on Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain

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flower
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Re: 26 Fighter / 4 Bard or 25 Fighter / 5 Rogue

Post by flower » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:07 pm

I second it, go WM dip. Despite fighter bonuses, WM dip is always better especially for PVE!

You will feel big difference if you deal 50-60 on critical or 120 against NPCs.

Turokk
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:58 am

Re: 26 Fighter / 4 Bard or 25 Fighter / 5 Rogue

Post by Turokk » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:39 am

Thanks for the feedback. I crawled through the Cookie Cutter (CC) again and I still don't see the difference. Maybe my math is way off or there is Arelith things that I am not aware of. I plugged the CC into the CharacterBuildCalculator from the Vault (https://neverwintervault.org/project/nw ... ulator-cbc) That thing makes my geek nipples hard.

Great idea on going with the Dwarven War Axe. I could drop the disarms for that. But the Disarm with a large weapon provides a +4 attack bonus on smaller weapon wielders. Still a niche thing.

First off CC Skills is a tad off. Not a game changer but accuracy. Intimidate (Weapon Master) is not listed.
Human 33 Skills
INT 33 Skills
Fighter/WM 60
Rogue 24
Total 150
33 Disc
33 Heal
30 Tumble
30 SpellCft (X-Class)
16 UMD
8 Intimidate (X-Class)

CC End Stats
25 BAB
40 Melee Attack (25 BAB, 10 STR, 3 (E)Wpn Fcs, 1 Epic Prow, 1 WpnMstr)
20 AC Mundane Full Plate and Tower Shield
378 HP
17/12/15 Saves
3 Spell Save (SplCrft)
Damage
2D6 Sneak Attack
1D6 Scimitar (16-20 X3)
6 (E)Wpn Spec
10 STR
Min DMG: 7
Max DMG: 78 (22X3)+12
If my numbers are wrong, let me know why so I can understand the mechanics better.
This all non magic so that the comparison is apples to apples. Both builds will be able to wear the same magical armor or + whatever weapons.

My build End Stats
24 BAB
40 Melee Attack ( 24 BAB, 7 STR, 3 (E)WpnFcs, 1 WpnMstr, 2 Fighter, 2 GrtSwrd, 1 Bard Sng)
19 AC Mundane Full Plate NO Tower Shield
494 HP
24/16/13 Saves with Bard song 23/15/13 Without
6 Spell Save (SplCrft)
9/- Damage Reduction
Damage
2D6 Overwhelming Critical (NWN WIKI: Despite the game description, overwhelming critical actually adds an additional 1d6 for a total of (critical multiplier)d6 extra damage.)
2D6 Great Sword (19-20 X2)
6 (E)WpnSpec
7 STR
3 -twohanded
2 Fighter Bonus
2 Bard Song
Min DMG: 22
Max DMG: 88

Over hundred more HP plus DR
Better saves
AC is within 1. If I board up that is a +6 (+5 more than the CC) Though I will take a sizeable hit on attack and damage.
Superior base damage. Although the CC will crit more I think the damage will still be comparable. Even if Keen is added, are we really hitting end game NPCs with a roll of 15 or less? I don't know. Since everyone is going IE it sounds like we are seeing who hits 17 or higher to hit anyway.

If my math, logic or assumptions are wrong please provide why they are wrong so that I can learn the mechanics better.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: 26 Fighter / 4 Bard or 25 Fighter / 5 Rogue

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:17 am

Base damage on weapons is pretty much irrelevant. Crit multiplier and crit range is, by far, the most important factor when determining damage. This is largely due to the sheer amount of bonus damage characters can add to their weapon.

To compare your character to the cookie-cutter WM, assuming both are using essenced masterly damask weapons and have had their str buffed by the max +12 (which is pretty easy to accomplish):

Scim WM: 1d6 + 6 mdamask + 4 essence + 6 WS/EWS + 16 str = 35.5 avg, 106.5 avg crit, 13-20 crit threat
Greatsword Build: 2d6 + 6 mdamask + 4 essence + 6 WS/EWS + 19 str + 2 fighter = 44 avg, 88 avg crit, 17-20 crit threat

Not only does the scimitar crit more often, it also crits for more damage. I'd do one of those damage comparison graphs, but I always forget to save the link.

On the subject of improved expertise, it's not something that everyone has turned on all the time. It's a situational thing that's only turned on when things go topsy-turvy. Also, I'm not sure where you got 20 mundane AC for the scim WM with full plate & tower shield. The level 30 AC breakdown actually looks like this, assuming mundane tower shield/fullplate/helmet:

Scim WM: 33 total
10 base
1 Dex
6 Tumble
9 full plate (8 base +1 fighter bonus)
4 tower shield (3 base +1 fighter bonus)
1 helmet (1 fighter bonus)
2 armor skin

Greatsword Build: 31 total [36 with shield, but sacrifices most of your offense]
10 base
1 Dex
6 Tumble
10 full plate (8 base +2 fighter bonus)
2 helmet (2 fighter bonus)
2 armor skin
[5 tower shield (3 base +2 fighter bonus)]
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain

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Jack Oat
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Re: 26 Fighter / 4 Bard or 25 Fighter / 5 Rogue

Post by Jack Oat » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:21 pm

Turokk wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:39 am
Thanks for the feedback. I crawled through the Cookie Cutter (CC) again and I still don't see the difference. Maybe my math is way off or there is Arelith things that I am not aware of. I plugged the CC into the CharacterBuildCalculator from the Vault (https://neverwintervault.org/project/nw ... ulator-cbc) That thing makes my geek nipples hard.

Great idea on going with the Dwarven War Axe. I could drop the disarms for that. But the Disarm with a large weapon provides a +4 attack bonus on smaller weapon wielders. Still a niche thing.

First off CC Skills is a tad off. Not a game changer but accuracy. Intimidate (Weapon Master) is not listed.
Human 33 Skills
INT 33 Skills
Fighter/WM 60
Rogue 24
Total 150
33 Disc
33 Heal
30 Tumble
30 SpellCft (X-Class)
16 UMD
8 Intimidate (X-Class)

CC End Stats
25 BAB
40 Melee Attack (25 BAB, 10 STR, 3 (E)Wpn Fcs, 1 Epic Prow, 1 WpnMstr)
20 AC Mundane Full Plate and Tower Shield
378 HP
17/12/15 Saves
3 Spell Save (SplCrft)
Damage
2D6 Sneak Attack
1D6 Scimitar (16-20 X3)
6 (E)Wpn Spec
10 STR
Min DMG: 7
Max DMG: 78 (22X3)+12
If my numbers are wrong, let me know why so I can understand the mechanics better.
This all non magic so that the comparison is apples to apples. Both builds will be able to wear the same magical armor or + whatever weapons.

My build End Stats
24 BAB
40 Melee Attack ( 24 BAB, 7 STR, 3 (E)WpnFcs, 1 WpnMstr, 2 Fighter, 2 GrtSwrd, 1 Bard Sng)
19 AC Mundane Full Plate NO Tower Shield
494 HP
24/16/13 Saves with Bard song 23/15/13 Without
6 Spell Save (SplCrft)
9/- Damage Reduction
Damage
2D6 Overwhelming Critical (NWN WIKI: Despite the game description, overwhelming critical actually adds an additional 1d6 for a total of (critical multiplier)d6 extra damage.)
2D6 Great Sword (19-20 X2)
6 (E)WpnSpec
7 STR
3 -twohanded
2 Fighter Bonus
2 Bard Song
Min DMG: 22
Max DMG: 88

Over hundred more HP plus DR
Better saves
AC is within 1. If I board up that is a +6 (+5 more than the CC) Though I will take a sizeable hit on attack and damage.
Superior base damage. Although the CC will crit more I think the damage will still be comparable. Even if Keen is added, are we really hitting end game NPCs with a roll of 15 or less? I don't know. Since everyone is going IE it sounds like we are seeing who hits 17 or higher to hit anyway.

If my math, logic or assumptions are wrong please provide why they are wrong so that I can learn the mechanics better.
Hey I use CBC too. Most of my base numbers come from it, but it's somewhat incomplete on a lot of stuff relating to the Arelith meta.

So let's clear a few things up, working end-to-front from your post and sorta around as I see best fit. First, yes. You will hit end-game NPCs on a 15 or less. It depends a lot on what you're fighting, but it's very doable and happens a lot. Even in Improved Expertise you'll find that your top two attacks on a WM have a good chance of landing, depending again on where you are. Different dungeons, different mobs, different ACs.

AC is not within one. AC is 5 apart when we add actual armors into the equation:
WM AC: 43 (without buffs)
10 (Base)
6 (Tumble)
2 (Armor Skin)
8 (Fullplate)
1 (DEX)
4 (Addy Plate + Ftr Bonus)
4 (Addy Helm + Ftr Bonus)
7 (Addy Tower + Ftr Bonus)
1 (Dodge from Boots)

Greatsword Ftr AC: 36 (without buffs), 44 with a shield (without buffs)
10 (Base)
6 (Tumble)
2 (Armor Skin)
8 (Fullplate)
-1 (DEX)
5 (Addy Plate + Ftr Bonus)
5 (Addy Helm + Ftr Bonus)
1 (Dodge from Boots)
[8 (Addy Tower + Ftr Bonus)]

Even if you buff up and add DEX to the Greatsword build it's still 3 below, unless you forsake your chosen/specialized weapon for the 1 extra AC, which would in turn kill your AB/damage output compared to the Scimitar WM.

Then we take a look at damage output. This is where the real disparity is. Note that I don't add the bonus from Bard Song like you did because I don't think the 3-4 uses/rest you get is worth adding on. If you want to look at adding specific small damage bonuses from items/equipment, we would be here all day talking about Battletide items, Divine Favor potions, etc.
A traditional Scimitar WM hits for 39 on average and crits for 117 on average on a 10-20 if keen, 13-20 non-keen.
3.5 (weapon base 1d6 avg.)
16 (STR mod)
6 (Masterly Damask)
4 (Permanent Essence)
6 (Weapon Spec & EWS)
3.5 (Temp. Essence 1d6 avg.)

Your Greatsword build hits for 47.5 on average and crits for 102 on average on a 15-20 if keen, 17-20 non-keen.
7 (weapon base 2d6 avg.)
13 (STR mod)
6 (STR mod 1.5x)
6 (Masterly Damask)
4 (Permanent Essence)
2 (Ftr Bonus)
6 (Weapon Spec & EWS)
3.5 (Temp. Essence 1d6 avg.)

AB ends up lower for you at 49 vs. 48:
WM:
25 (BAB)
16 (STR mod)
3 (Weapon Focus/EWF)
3 (Weapon itself)
1 (Epic Prowess)
1 (WM bonus)

Greatsword Ftr:
24 (BAB, according to you)
13 (STR mod)
3 (Weapon Focus/EWF)
3 (Weapon itself)
2 (Ftr Bonus)
2 (Two-Handed bonus)
1 (Epic Prowess)

What this ends up looking like, on a damage graph including Keen on both sides, is this:
Image

Admittedly some of the numbers on your end could better be adjusted. Moving the Bard/Rogue dip to Epics would net you one more BAB. Adjusting your STR to 26 end-build (for the record the Fighter bonus to STR goes toward your +12 soft-cap) would also net you 1 more AB and 2 more damage. Even then, the numbers still don't come close.

Now we look at HP/DR. You're right, your build gets something like 674 HP between 22 base CON, full +12 to CON from gear/buffs, and Toughness. Compared to the 564 of a Scimitar WM, you have about 110 more HP. You can soak more blows, yes. But comparing this back to your AC, you also get hit more often. Arelith's late-game content survival is usually characterized by having higher AC than it is by having DR, with scant exceptions (namely Barbarian which mitigates this by having a high temporary HP pool to draw from). Standard melee builds like these are not those exceptions. Dealing so much more damage on a Scimitar WM means that the enemy is going to have fewer opportunities to actually diminish your HP pool since... Well, they'll be dead. It also means that if you're being overwhelmed and need to hunker down with your shield, it's just a matter of hitting Improved Expertise and still having your Scimitar, and not forsaking your chosen weapon in favor of a shield for more AC.

Skill-points wise, the numbers there are a bit skewed but not terribly so. It comes out to about the same in the end. Here's the breakdown:
Human Scimitar WM w/ 13 INT: 150
16 (Starting FTR, 4 * [2 + 1 INT + Human])
104 (26 levels of 2 + INT + Human classes, Fighter & Weaponmaster)
30 (3 levels of 8 + INT + Human class, Rogue)

Dwarven Greatsword Ftr w/ 14 INT: 140
16 (Starting FTR, 4 * [2 + 2 INT])
100 (25 levels of 2 + INT class, Fighter)
24 (4 levels of 4 + INT class, Bard)

Both basically give you enough for all you need:
33 Discipline
33 Heal
30 Tumble
16 UMD
32 Spellcraft (either base w/ Bard or CC'd)

This adds up to 144, so you drop 2 off the Spellcraft CC on the Scimitar WM and snag your 4 token points of Intimidate for the pre-req.

As far as saves are concerned, yes. Dumping more feats into saves will boost your saves higher. You can also end up getting Unisave on your gear at higher-end levels and that mitigates a lot of the differences. My 20/7/3 had gear with Unisaves on them and ended up pushing upper 30s Fortitude and low-mid 20s Reflex and Will, but I also dipped Bard and took full Spellcraft and had it on gear, so I got another +10 to saves vs. spells. Granted I built for PvP more than PvE, but even with a Spellcraft CC and adequate gear you can usually manage about +5 to +6 vs. spells which can help mitigate the DCs on NPC spells. There are also UMD counters to most spells that you can learn how to use for more reliable, less accident-prone results.

Overall the Scimitar WM is going to be a more versatile build to play. You do more damage by far, you get more AC, and while you don't have the hulking HP pool of a Dwarf with ridiculous CON modifier, you still aren't a baby-back bunny who falls over when getting flicked. In a party you're a solid tank and a solid DPS character, and can easily function in both capacities.

Another thing to look at is build progression. We talk a lot about the AC, AB, and Damage especially, and while you end up with similar AC and AB, those numbers lag behind a lot until very late game when your Fighter 23/25 bonuses start kicking in. Whereas a WM build picks up heavily right around the low teens when you get those x3 crits and then expand your threat range.

Going forward I cannot recommend your Fighter build. If you want to play a Greatsword user, that's fine. The 20/7/3 build can easily replace Scimitar and some other feats with Greatsword and still deal heaps of damage, albeit at the cost of defensive capabilities. Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe are also good options to consider, as others have pointed out. Fighter 26/Bard 4 is not a great choice. It's outclassed by other class combinations.

In closing I'm compelled to say: I'm not writing all of this to shoot you down. Quite the opposite, I want you to enjoy your playtime and enjoy your character. I think the foundation to enjoying the server is having a character and build that can do well in the module. To that end, I believe firmly that you would find more enjoyment in a WM than you would the Fighter build.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


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flower
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Re: 26 Fighter / 4 Bard or 25 Fighter / 5 Rogue

Post by flower » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:58 pm

i played few fighter mainly builds. And those where i didnt add least 5 WM lvls were...too plain. No abilities to use, no spells, no multiplier modifiers. AC and HPS even with other meleers, but lacking rage, big crits, immunities of PM, whatever.

I would not reccomend mainly fighter levels. And not even that cookies cutter brycer fighter. It would be awsome perhaps before paladinal changes, but imho now it is paying off to go full paladin with fighter dip instead of vice versa.

Even if you build for PVE, than PVP, the more i would reccomend to pick up least five wm levels for that multiplier it is a huge difference when you deal 100- 120 dmg and 60-80. Once you get to the giants in epic places you will find out that plain fighter build struggles with damage and killing them takes awfully long compared to multiplied crits, and even when you hit on their mages (whom you want to die fast).

Turokk
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:58 am

Re: 26 Fighter / 4 Bard or 25 Fighter / 5 Rogue

Post by Turokk » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:35 pm

Consider me convinced. Thanks for the replies. Jack, I really appreciate the amount of information you provided. It was very informative and well articulated. The effort is appreciated. Thanks for the graph. I will look at that tool for further builds.

I had Weapon Master on the brain and missed adding the Fighter Bonuses to the stats. I also wasn't aware of how much additional damage could be added to enhance the weapons.

Whoever has control of the Cookie Cutter should paste this link to the sheet as a reference on why. I am not the first noob and will not be the last noob.

Thanks again everyone

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