Orog fighter/wm/rog build

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Lasos
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Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Lasos » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:03 pm

Hi all,

I've been brewing on a 2-hander build using the incredible Orog Greatsword, and I would love some feedback on it. Here's what I've come up with:

Fighter (1) Dodge, Weapon Focus: Greatsword, (Orog: Power Attack)
Fighter (2) Expertise
Fighter (3) Cleave
Fighter (4) Mobility
Fighter (5)
Fighter (6) Spring Attack, Whirlwind
Weapon Master (1)
Weapon Master (2)
Weapon Master (3) Improved Critical: Greatsword
Weapon Master (4)
Weapon Master (5)
Weapon Master (6) Great Cleave
Weapon Master (7)
Fighter (7)
Fighter (8) Knockdown, Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
Fighter (9)
Fighter (10) Improved Knockdown
Fighter (11) Improved Expertise
Fighter (12) Blind Fight
Fighter (13)
Fighter (14) Epic Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Great Strength I
Fighter (15)
Fighter (16) Epic Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
Fighter (17) Great Strength II
Rogue (1)
Rogue (2)
Rogue (3) ESF: Discipline
Fighter (18) Overwhelming Critical Hit
Fighter (19)
Fighter (20) Armor Skin, Great Strength III

As you can see, this is heavily inspired by the Cookie-cutter Str-based Fighter/WM. Cleave is a must-have for a melee character for me, especially when levelling, and since Orogs already get the Power Attack, it's pretty easy to pick up. I think of taking Great Cleave mostly because I did not really know what to put in in it's stead, and I wanted to try it out. However, I do imagine very little use for this feat when dealing with mobs that are worth fighting, since one-hitting them is probably going to be very unlikely. One perk of taking it though, is that it naturally makes it quite easy to take the Overwhelming Critical Hit feat, while still netting those 3 Great Strengths. I guess the places where I see room for optimization/changes are Great Cleave and Overwhelming Critical Hit, but I'm not sure if I can see any real contestants for these other than maybe Toughness instead of Great Clave and then Epic Prowess instead of Overwhelming Critical Hit?

Lemme know what you think, and if I've missed anything.

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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by sexy and brooding dark lord » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:25 am

I'd consider improved disarm as well, since you are using a large weapon.

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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Lasos » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:58 am

Does it make any sense to switch out ESF: Discipline with i.e. Epic Prowess? I believe I will be getting something around: 33 (skills) + 16 (str mod.) + 10 (gear, could even be higher) = 59 Discipline without. Will that be enough, do people reckon?

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Jagel
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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Jagel » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:25 am

The standard answer is that you always want to get esf: disc on a melee build.

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Tarkus the dog
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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Tarkus the dog » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:45 am

I honestly don't think you need ESF: Discipline as a STR build when going two-handed. You won't get knocked down by anything, and your weapon won't be disarmed either (if you get yourself properly, that is ).

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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Ebonstar » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:50 pm

the rogue levels add nothing to this build. you wont need umd as your a tank and you wont be sneaking to get sneak attacks

and isnt overwhelming crit disabled?
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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Basementfellow » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:47 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:50 pm
the rogue levels add nothing to this build. you wont need umd as your a tank and you wont be sneaking to get sneak attacks

and isnt overwhelming crit disabled?
Every build needs UMD, in my humble opinion. Not because it's optimal -- but because it's more fun. Adds so much strategy and utility to a character that would otherwise just be "I click on dudes."

Two-handers are tanks? Thought they were always relatively squishy damage-dealers.

He'll still get Sneak Attacks if he flanks, or uses Knockdown.

Devastating Crit is the one that's disabled, but Overwhelming Crit is of questionable usefulness -- or so I've heard.
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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by flower » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:35 pm

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:45 am
I honestly don't think you need ESF: Discipline as a STR build when going two-handed. You won't get knocked down by anything, and your weapon won't be disarmed either (if you get yourself properly, that is ).
And how is that? AB is common up to 50.

Improved KD adds you bonus +4 on the DC.



So 30 discipline + 20 from gear + 15 str is only 65. This means you can get KDed without rolling 20 (of opponent on attack) on die. With 60-65 discipline not being KDed is dependant on the the roll of d20 you roll versus the KD attack.

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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Lasos » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:41 pm

Basementfellow wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:47 pm
Ebonstar wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:50 pm
the rogue levels add nothing to this build. you wont need umd as your a tank and you wont be sneaking to get sneak attacks

and isnt overwhelming crit disabled?
Every build needs UMD, in my humble opinion. Not because it's optimal -- but because it's more fun. Adds so much strategy and utility to a character that would otherwise just be "I click on dudes."
I agree.
Basementfellow wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:47 pm
Two-handers are tanks? Thought they were always relatively squishy damage-dealers.
Having just played a 2-handed Barbarian, I can concur to this statement. 2-handed, even with a lot of HP (which this build cannot really boast of), still actually feels a little squishy in my opinion, simply because they get hit so much more. Squishyness was actually my biggest worry with this build.
Basementfellow wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:47 pm
He'll still get Sneak Attacks if he flanks, or uses Knockdown.
Not to forget 6 AC from 30 Tumble! However this could also be achieved by dipping Bard, and in the process netting twice as much Spellcraft as I planned on taking, but the Sneak Attack and the Evasion I feel is more appealing.
Basementfellow wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:47 pm
... but Overwhelming Crit is of questionable usefulness -- or so I've heard.
There's a decently in-depth discussion about it here: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=21622. After reading that, I decided to make the build I posted here. Granted the best use of it is with a 18-20 crit chance weapon, which Greatsword is not, but I am just not seeing many feats that can really contest it.

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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Ebonstar » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:32 pm

Lasos wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:41 pm
Basementfellow wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:47 pm
Ebonstar wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:50 pm
the rogue levels add nothing to this build. you wont need umd as your a tank and you wont be sneaking to get sneak attacks

and isnt overwhelming crit disabled?
Every build needs UMD, in my humble opinion. Not because it's optimal -- but because it's more fun. Adds so much strategy and utility to a character that would otherwise just be "I click on dudes."
I agree.
Basementfellow wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:47 pm
Two-handers are tanks? Thought they were always relatively squishy damage-dealers.
Having just played a 2-handed Barbarian, I can concur to this statement. 2-handed, even with a lot of HP (which this build cannot really boast of), still actually feels a little squishy in my opinion, simply because they get hit so much more. Squishyness was actually my biggest worry with this build.
Basementfellow wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:47 pm
He'll still get Sneak Attacks if he flanks, or uses Knockdown.
Not to forget 6 AC from 30 Tumble! However this could also be achieved by dipping Bard, and in the process netting twice as much Spellcraft as I planned on taking, but the Sneak Attack and the Evasion I feel is more appealing.
Basementfellow wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:47 pm
... but Overwhelming Crit is of questionable usefulness -- or so I've heard.
There's a decently in-depth discussion about it here: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=21622. After reading that, I decided to make the build I posted here. Granted the best use of it is with a 18-20 crit chance weapon, which Greatsword is not, but I am just not seeing many feats that can really contest it.
ok then I have a question, why play a WM with a special blade just for his race just to be one of the hundred dippers so you can tumble in plate, which still doesnt make any sense rp wise

2d6 sneak is paltry in an upper epic and stoneskin fixes your squishyness. what trap can hurt a super hp monster to warrant evasion and i played a 2hander a while ago and your greatest asset is shock trooper value. you charge in and deal nasty damage taking out most spawns before they can blink in pve and pvp you just have be be stoneskinned to do the same

sorry but imo, the way its described with rogue dip is a half orc that has a tutu around his waist in his plate walking on point
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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by flower » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:48 pm

Any +5 weapon will ignore your stoneskin.

And why do you drag here that nonsence about dipping and tumble, gods, people, will you ever stop to complain on dipping? :lol:

You would be surprised how mobile people are in platemails and for example some editions of dnd have, to your surprise, special feats to increase dexterity modifier added to the X type of armour. So you remark about rp nonsence is totally off. Tumble does not mean wild jumping like ninja off the blade.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:55 am

Ebonstar, it would be greatly appreciated if you didn't turn this into yet another thread ranting against taking class dips. There are a number of them already. The opinions of those who oppose dips are already well known at this point.

Regarding the arguments you've made:

Stoneskin does not fix the squishiness of a low AC build. Wanded stoneskin (which you need UMD for, so that's another reason to take a rogue or bard dip) only gives 10/+5 DR, which isn't terribly relevant when enemies are doing 50+ damage a hit, and it goes away after 70 damage is absorbed. There's many situations at mid and epic levels where stoneskin won't even last through a single round in combat.

Evasion isn't only relevant to traps - it also applies to many AoE and single target spells that can quickly do decent amounts of damage. Evasion is very helpful for taking advantage of the fairly high reflex saves of the 20/7/3 build.

No-one takes a rogue dip for the 2d6 sneak damage. That's just icing on the cake.
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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Ebonstar » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:48 am

Baron Saturday wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:55 am
Ebonstar, it would be greatly appreciated if you didn't turn this into yet another thread ranting against taking class dips. There are a number of them already. The opinions of those who oppose dips are already well known at this point.

Regarding the arguments you've made:

Stoneskin does not fix the squishiness of a low AC build. Wanded stoneskin (which you need UMD for, so that's another reason to take a rogue or bard dip) only gives 10/+5 DR, which isn't terribly relevant when enemies are doing 50+ damage a hit, and it goes away after 70 damage is absorbed. There's many situations at mid and epic levels where stoneskin won't even last through a single round in combat.

Evasion isn't only relevant to traps - it also applies to many AoE and single target spells that can quickly do decent amounts of damage. Evasion is very helpful for taking advantage of the fairly high reflex saves of the 20/7/3 build.

No-one takes a rogue dip for the 2d6 sneak damage. That's just icing on the cake.
never said he was casting stoneskin which means a mage does and its alot better than 10/5
his listing is rogue at 25 6 and 7 at which he is already a hp monster that can whirlwind dodges very well and is immune to AOO.
this setup is a melee shock trooper from the hells.
if he cant deal enough damage in the first two rounds of combat that the spawn is down to one maybe two foes, something is wrong.

by the time he hits 24 he will be dishing out over 100 points damage per attack more so with all the perks of the racial blade which means he will lay waste against anything. my only point is why change a good thing.

ive read the threads about you have to have umd or you have to cross class to survive, and its not true. im not ranting about dipping im stating my opinion that by the time your toon is level 25 and all the sudden hey im a super rogue because i can dump 30 points into a stat, makes no sense. hes a two handed greatsword killing machine and then he wakes up one day and out of nowhere has a lifetime trained skill he never had prior to that day

just like you study as a mage and hit level 27 and all the sudden he can dodge the same rock from a giant that cleaned his clock the day before

last time i read about the server we encourage strict rp, and keeping in character, but it seems mechanics have gotten in the way of that. just because it can be done doesnt mean it should be done

do what you will, but dont fault me for believing rp and the skills that back it up have some logical form
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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Hazard » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:53 am

Please don't assume someone elses character is built on the premise of 'poor RP'. You don't know their character and the classes/skills they have in their build very well may perfectly represent the character they want to play. Mine do, and assumptions like that can hurt peoples feelings. These skills and classes are incorporated into roleplay, backstory and character development in a very fun way for a lot of people.

Having said that though, I also totally understand your unwillingness to dip if it doesn't suit /your/ character. I've been there too, and I can respect that. It can be frustrating to have the idea of a character in your mind but the meta of the server just doesn't support it because it won't be viable/competitive enough.

Your character could RP to struggle with understanding how to dodge and use magical items, until very near the end of their training where they 'finally get it'. That's a common way to let things play out, and it feels more organic and realistic. Far less sudden/over night.

Not meaning to derail, so to get things more on track I would highly advise ESF: Disc. No amount is too much! The most disc the better.

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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by -XXX- » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:52 am

Also one more comment regarding that ESF:Discipline - true strike wands are a thing!

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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by flower » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:18 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:52 am
Also one more comment regarding that ESF:Discipline - true strike wands are a thing!
The spell lasts only 3 secs wands are waste it is why you use potions of it.

But yes discipline at 60 is not enough :/

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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Jack Oat » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:30 am

I made the original cookie-cutter sheet, and I've read most(some?) of the stuff in here. I also participated in the OWC vs. GS3 discussion linked somewhere in this thread.

ESF Discipline: Take it. No questions. 65 Disc isn't really enough on a build that doesn't have the AC to mitigate incoming blows. As others have pointed out, TS pots are a thing.

I would personally ditch Cleave/Great Cleave/OWC and instead take Disarm/Imp Disarm/Epic Prowess in their place(s). Remember that Disarm is going to give you a +4 on your AB roll cus NWN numbers be like that. Also disarming people with a 2h is hilarious. I think the bonus AB and chance to debilitate your foe will outweigh the extra 3d6 damage you'd do on a 13-20 crit range. Matter of fact, I don't just think, I'm DESTROYING these THO(ugh)TS with LOGIC and MATH.

No matter what, I recommend taking Knockdown at 3 instead of Cleave or Disarm, sheerly so you can keep some mobs down that need to be kept down for grinding (i.e. spellcasters).

Debatably you could replace Improved Expertise with Toughness for a bit more beef to your DPS machine, but with Barkskin you can pull 40 AC, and hasted with Improved Expertise, Mage Armor, and Shadowshield (from UMD) you could push that up to 56. While I admit AC 2h builds are sort of a meme, it's at least something to consider. Having Imp Exp also allows you to switch to sword/board if you find yourself forced into a tank role.
Actually I think I just talked myself out of ditching Imp Exp for Toughness.


Yeah, that's all I got.

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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Lasos » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:46 pm

Always good to have a look at some actual numbers! I will however contest the premise for your calculations a bit. I thought Imp. Disarm only gave AB increase when attempting the move on lower-sized weapons?

From what I’ve researched, a large weapon would have the following AB changes:
- Against Large: -4 AB
- Against Medium: 0 AB
- Against Small: +4 AB
- Against Tiny: +8 AB

So comparing OWC with +4 AB is really only relevant when fighting creatures with small sized weapons, am I right? if that is the case, then I would argue that the AB increase is kind of situational. I have no idea how to estimate just exactly how situational though.

I agree that Disarm would be nice to have, but in terms of PvE, I believe that it is only a few creatures that are actually disarmable, due to mechanics. You can get a +4 AB roll against an NPC wielding a small sized weapon, but in many instances, they will never drop it even though you technically “succeed” by beating their Discipline check. So besides a situational AB increase, it won’t be doing too much for you in PvE, is how I understood it.

I also don’t get why Cleave is not getting any more love than it is? Personally it think it is quite strong for grinding, where it will net you an extra APR in many situations. I may just be falling into a noob trap though... I don’t know if that extra APR comes with a -5, or if I’m only noticing when I Cleave, and not when I don’t, thus being biased as to have often it actually procs. Obviously Cleave is not useful for neither PvP nor biss-fights though.

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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Ork » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:42 pm

Imp. Disarm reduces the penalty by -4. Disarm is -6. So let's correct those numbers:

- Against Large: -2 AB
- Against Medium: +2 AB
- Against Small: +6 AB
- Against Tiny: +10 AB


Damn. Stand corrected.
Last edited by Ork on Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Baron Saturday » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:14 pm

Ork wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:42 pm
Imp. Disarm reduces the penalty by -4. Disarm is -6. So let's correct those numbers:

- Against Large: -2 AB
- Against Medium: +2 AB
- Against Small: +6 AB
- Against Tiny: +10 AB
Sorry, Ork, Lasos has it right: Improved Disarm decreases the penalty to -4, not by -4. So the progression would indeed be -4/0/+4/+8.

One thing to note, Lasos, is that even if PvE enemies can't be disarmed, you still get the +4/+8 AB if they have small or tiny weapons. The usefulness of this information depends on your willingness to spam improved disarm in PvE combat.
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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Jack Oat » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:17 pm

Lasos wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:46 pm
Always good to have a look at some actual numbers! I will however contest the premise for your calculations a bit. I thought Imp. Disarm only gave AB increase when attempting the move on lower-sized weapons?

From what I’ve researched, a large weapon would have the following AB changes:
- Against Large: -4 AB
- Against Medium: 0 AB
- Against Small: +4 AB
- Against Tiny: +8 AB

So comparing OWC with +4 AB is really only relevant when fighting creatures with small sized weapons, am I right? if that is the case, then I would argue that the AB increase is kind of situational. I have no idea how to estimate just exactly how situational though.
Yeah you right. I hadn't looked it up in a while, tbh. I've thoroughly enjoyed playing chars with disarm feats, personally, just because of the shenanigans you can get away with and the RP it can create. Also you don't have to worry about Mr. Rogue sneak attacking you if both of his shortswords are in your inventory.
Lasos wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:46 pm
I agree that Disarm would be nice to have, but in terms of PvE, I believe that it is only a few creatures that are actually disarmable, due to mechanics. You can get a +4 AB roll against an NPC wielding a small sized weapon, but in many instances, they will never drop it even though you technically “succeed” by beating their Discipline check. So besides a situational AB increase, it won’t be doing too much for you in PvE, is how I understood it.
This is where you and I part ways on beliefs. I don't build for PvE, as PvE is dumby easy. If you ARE doing for PvE, I would say that you don't want to be using a 2h weapon as that just makes grinding more painful unless you have a way to mitigate the damage you take, i.e. Barbarian Rage temp HP or Monk AC. That is, unless you have someone sticking you on permanent -guard.
Lasos wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:46 pm
I also don’t get why Cleave is not getting any more love than it is? Personally it think it is quite strong for grinding, where it will net you an extra APR in many situations. I may just be falling into a noob trap though... I don’t know if that extra APR comes with a -5, or if I’m only noticing when I Cleave, and not when I don’t, thus being biased as to have often it actually procs. Obviously Cleave is not useful for neither PvP nor biss-fights though.
Cleave is one of those things that I would define as "ok." The extra APR does chain your -5 penalty stack when you start getting higher APR. It also only sometimes triggers when your APR gets to max. Great Cleave is decent for plowing through goblins on the trade road, but I'd say that's about it. That's two feats for something that has "meh" decency and only fires occasionally. Still, if you do end up going the OWC route you get them anyway. And OWC isn't something to be dismissed lightly, I'll admit. 3d6 extra damage on a crit is nice.

Overall if your goal is PvE, I don't think you should be playing a Greatsword WM. I'm sure some people will disagree and say that they've done it, and that's fine, but bear in mind how painful the grind will be with basically a permanent -6 AC vs. a 1h WM or other Fighter build, let alone any sort of DEX build, Monks, Rangers, et cetera. I have also done it, and I will admit that up to level about 11 I was fine. And then it felt like I slammed my face into an iron wall and couldn't progress. Sure, you could mitigate some of that issue by just carrying a sword + board, but then what's the point of being a Greatsword WM and not a 1h WM?

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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by Bernie » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:32 pm

Curious to see the final Orog WM build !!
What does it look like ?

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Re: Orog fighter/wm/rog build

Post by dallion43 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:05 am

Switch cleave to exotic
OChit to prowess.
Move AS to early epic lvl.
great cleave to luck of heroes or toughness. Depends on taste and one more factor.
Count your 30 lvl saves, runed gear included. Consider switching Great str 2 and 3 with relevant epic save feats.

Switch to:
Orog Bastard Sword
Enhancement Bonus: +4
Damage Bonus: +2 Bludgeoning
Keen
Special: Can only be wielded by an Orog
The racial restriction cannot be bypassed with UMD

Use this:
Bastard Sword can be toggled to one handed/two handed with the -twohand command. Bastard swords, however, don't receive the bonus above when they are two-handed using the command.

Be flexible. Be happy.

p.c
"Improved KD adds you bonus +4 on the DC. "
This is phrased a bit misleading. It simply brings the DC to +0.

Imho.

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