Questions on building a "Battle" Cleric.

[RollerToaster]

Okay so I've started a "Battle" Cleric, the jist of their character is that they worship Tempus (The Lord of Battle) and is basically a mercenary for hire. So I want them to be versatile in what they can do, whether it's be semi-tanky, do damage, combat heal or provide buffs. I care more for character flavour over optimal choices, which is why I'm not following the cookie cutter build. (Yes I know this is full of contradictions.)

So my questions are:

1. Is Divine Might and/or Divine Shield worth taking?

2. Is it worth going over 20 Cleric?

3. Should I dip into CoT or Fighter?

[Jagel]

Take a look at the cookie-cutter build thread. You need a lot more than 20 cleric lvls to avoid being dispelled to Avernus and back all the time.

[RollerToaster]

I care more for character flavour over optimal choices, which is why I'm not following the cookie cutter build. (Yes I know this is full of contradictions.)

[Wrips]

Stats?

[RollerToaster]

Currently I had them with 16 Str (Gift), 10 Dex, 14 Con, 18 Wis (Gift), 12 Int and 10 Chr.

[sad_zav]

12 int means no expertise. Also means almost no skill points. Should've put the cha into making it 14 int. 10 dex is also a waste.

10 cha isn't enough to make div shield/might worth it, especially at the cost of 33 skill points and expertise.

Cot dips aren't worth it. If you're going to dip fighter, do 23/4/3 with the 3 being rogue or bard. Take 3 fighter pre epic with the 4th being epic for weapon specs

[Baron Saturday]

At this point, most of the advice in this thread is going to boil down to, "The closer your build is to the cookie-cutter battlecleric, the better it will be." You might get more helpful advice if you tell us why the cookie-cutter build doesn't fit your specific concept, so we can help you tweak it or suggest alternatives.

[RollerToaster]

Basically I don't want to take Bard/Rogue just because Tumble or UMD is gud for all characters. I like playing my characters close to their own flavour as possible.

[TimeAdept]

Your character will not be able to fulfill the desired roles to adequate fashion without those multiclass choices or a proper stat array. This isn't making "RP decisions", it's just making bad ones.

[Skibbles]

I hope you reconsider. You will desperately need at least tumble if you hope to be fighting a lot. 6 ac is the difference between being hit 5% of the time versus 40% of the time.

[sad_zav]

Yeah this "dips are bad" and "powerbuilding is bad" and "rp decision" sentiment that's been especially prevalent lately serves only to hurt your gaming experience and the experience of the people that try to do pve content with you. At this point it's purely contrarian.

This server is balanced around dipping. This game was built around dipping (and you normally only need to take 1 level in a class, not three). Be a hipster at your own peril

This hurts me as a builds person because I don't want to send someone away with a build that I feel is busted. without access to tumble, umd, and expertise, you will be bad. And for your groups? You will be a liability. Is -that- in line with your character concept?

[flower]

If you dont care to focus on casting i would say go 26 cleric and 4 bard (3 bard pre epic for early umd and tumble).

You should be able to pick all needed feats and get resistence to the dispel. Or use the cookies cutter build, and dip in also abjuration with arcane defense for +2 caster level.

Improved critical, weapon specialization or expertise are not fully neccesary unless you really desire to tip out power. However, i would consider to pick domain of death for empowered harms….and to it travel for haste.

Edit: I never faced dispels on my cleric as i had not fough mages, imho in pvp if you fight more guys and one is wizard able to dispel you then even higher caster level will not help and clasic 23 lvls + should be enough versus meelers (disjunction Scroll is CL 17 only) bar paladins and damned spellswords (a meleer, with best dispel Ig, abj focus usually, and magic). But in PVE dispels hurt badly. Where my friend with his sub optimal DD build soloed a single dispel was when lucky, able to dry dispel me and prevent me to solo.

[sad_zav]

Don't do 3 bard pre epic. That hurts your ab. If you're not dipping fighter, do 27/3. Take all 3 bard at the end

[flower]

Don't do 3 bard pre epic. That hurts your ab. If you're not dipping fighter, do 27/3. Take all 3 bard at the end

On cleric? It really does not matter. If you are not using divine power you will suck at melee anyway.

[sad_zav]

there is no reason to permanently sacrifice one AB and CL for nothing.

[flower]

there is no reason to permanently sacrifice one AB and CL for nothing.

If you want easier life and do not care a lot in precise min-max build, then you may také bard pre epic to get discipline and tumble and umd early. It will make things much easier than waiting for 27th level. There are people who také over year to get to this level, and there are people who get there in 2 weeks.

[sad_zav]

the end result is weaker. chances are, if you take a while to level, you're not going to be very inclined to roll either.

don't do 26/4 unless you want to be worse

[Baron Saturday]

Alright folks, I think we've made it pretty clear that we think a battlecleric without dips for UMD or tumble is a bad idea. Since the OP already knew that and asked for it anyhow, let's see what can be done.

So: Losing UMD on a cleric, not great, but not the worst. You've got access to Word of Faith and most of the Zoo spells you need natively. Tumble is the bigger problem - 6 AC is a lot. You'll probably want to CC it at least to take the hurt down to only 3. The bigger problem is the 12 Int - not only does that drop you to 3 skill points/level (4 if your character is human, which I'm really, really hoping they are, at this point), but, as has been pointed out, it denies you Expertise and Improved Expertise, a source of AC that you will badly want. I'd definitely recommend remaking with 14 Int.

What are you thinking for domains? I'd strongly recommend at least one of Travel, Trickery, and Plant - preferably two. You really want the defensive spells they offer. Fortunately your summon will still be able to carry you through much of PvE, though hiding behind it may not feel very battlecleric-y.

Given no rogue or bard dip, cleric 25/fighter 5 might be the way to go, picking up fighter 4 and 5 in epic levels for WS/EWS.

[sad_zav]

i'm not going to help build a cronenberg creature, but other people are welcome to help.

this build will be fun for you if you like struggling a lot (and people you group with probably won't). that's all i have left to say.

[flower]

Alright folks, I think we've made it pretty clear that we think a battlecleric without dips for UMD or tumble is a bad idea. Since the OP already knew that and asked for it anyhow, let's see what can be done.

So: Losing UMD on a cleric, not great, but not the worst. You've got access to Word of Faith and most of the Zoo spells you need natively. Tumble is the bigger problem - 6 AC is a lot. You'll probably want to CC it at least to take the hurt down to only 3. The bigger problem is the 12 Int - not only does that drop you to 3 skill points/level (4 if your character is human, which I'm really, really hoping they are, at this point), but, as has been pointed out, it denies you Expertise and Improved Expertise, a source of AC that you will badly want. I'd definitely recommend remaking with 14 Int.

What are you thinking for domains? I'd strongly recommend at least one of Travel, Trickery, and Plant - preferably two. You really want the defensive spells they offer. Fortunately your summon will still be able to carry you through much of PvE, though hiding behind it may not feel very battlecleric-y.

Given no rogue or bard dip, cleric 25/fighter 5 might be the way to go, picking up fighter 4 and 5 in epic levels for WS/EWS.

Trickery is not neccesary, improved invis has solid lasting from wands, where the haste does not. Barskin from wand is +4 AC, from spell of domain +5AC. Good to have, but getting for example empowered harm would boost his magical damage. It is, 230 -260 damage x 1,5. He could drop harm or two and finish by melee attack. I believe it would give big advantage. Also it is not physical damage, he could in theory get off two harms in timestop...

[Baron Saturday]

Trickery is not neccesary, improved invis has solid lasting from wands, where the haste does not. Barskin from wand is +4 AC, from spell of domain +5AC. Good to have, but getting for example empowered harm would boost his magical damage. It is, 230 -260 damage x 1,5. He could drop harm or two and finish by melee attack. I believe it would give big advantage. Also it is not physical damage, he could in theory get off two harms in timestop...

No UMD means no timestop scrolls (though it could still be done in a party), no wanded improved invis, and... I can't remember if barkskin wands can be used by clerics, but regardless, they would be quite dispellable. The idea is to get some defenses that won't crumble under a single dispel, because this character needs every jot of AC it can get.

[flower]

Trickery is not neccesary, improved invis has solid lasting from wands, where the haste does not. Barskin from wand is +4 AC, from spell of domain +5AC. Good to have, but getting for example empowered harm would boost his magical damage. It is, 230 -260 damage x 1,5. He could drop harm or two and finish by melee attack. I believe it would give big advantage. Also it is not physical damage, he could in theory get off two harms in timestop...

No UMD means no timestop scrolls (though it could still be done in a party), no wanded improved invis, and... I can't remember if barkskin wands can be used by clerics, but regardless, they would be quite dispellable. The idea is to get some defenses that won't crumble under a single dispel, because this character needs every jot of AC it can get.

You can obtain these wands in divine form. Oh no umd would mean no spell breach so harm would be pointless. And the spells from wands / scrolls /potions také over caster level of character for dispel purposes, no? It is why mundane has CL 30 on these things.

[Baron Saturday]

Casters using wands cast the wanded spell at the level on the wand, including for dispel checks.

[flower]

Casters using wands cast the wanded spell at the level on the wand, including for dispel checks.

Wow are you certain of that? Because i did not notice this. I use wans on my paladin and is hard to dispel even effects from wands and scrolls, same as my own cleric.

[Baron Saturday]

Pretty certain. So far as I know, the only exception is that after a reset all characters are counted as mundane until they cast a spell from their spellbook.