Treasure Hunter / Spy

[Aburu01]

Hello everybody,

I am new to Arelith, so I wonder if you could help me with build focused upon a treasure hunting (for fun) and spying (for RP).

I have no preference for race, but dwarf seems to be good (for RP) with neutral good alignment, with Marthammor Duin as a deity, probably take Gift of Tongues. I don't care about charisma (can be as low as possible - who says I need to be prince charming), but the other abilities should be at least 10 (if it is possible for build reasons).

This character should not concentrate on fighting skills, but skills to go around enemies (if possible), pickpocket them (often), unlock chests/doors and disarm/set traps, and of course be undetected by others (spy). Maybe I am too demanding (sorry if this is the case).

PvP is not the main focus, but to be able to outrun the opponent or to try to kill them with traps, might be good.

I assume that rogue/sd would be the right thing, but could you please help me with the precise distribution?

Thank you very much in advance.

[CosmicOrderV]

Considering Marthammor is a lot to do about exploration and travel, I would definitely suggest some mixture of Ranger and Rogue.

Probably just the good 'ole 25/5.

[Fionn]

For the treasure hunter, you'll want to max Search. Unclear what you mean by outrun - Barbarian or Monk help on speed. Rogue 24 can do Blinding Speed to stay Hasted much of the time. For spy you'll likely want to look at Disguise, which I believe is based off Bluff (yes, it's kinda borked, but hopefully folk can RP around the mistakes).

Bluff: assassin, bard, Harper scout, rogue
Search: assassin, ranger, red dragon disciple, rogue, shadowdancer

NG rules out Assassin, and as your first toon HS/RDD are unlikely too. I'd look to mostly straight Rogue personally. Maybe the Ftr6/Rog24 build on the cookie cutter thread.

[Baron Saturday]

I'm gonna pretty much ignore PvP ability in this build.

Dwarf
STR 13
DEX 19 (17+gift)
CON 14
INT 16 (14+gift)
WIS 10
CHA 6

Rogue 10/Fighter 6/SD 14
01: Rogue(1): Ambidexterity
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion, Weapon Finesse}
03: Rogue(3): Two-Weapon Fighting, {Uncanny Dodge}
04: Fighter(1): DEX+1, Weapon Focus
05: Fighter(2): Dodge
06: Fighter(3): Mobility
07: Rogue (4)
08: SD(1): DEX+1
09: SD(2): Toughness, {Darkvision}
10: SD(3): {Shadow Daze, Summon Shadow}
11: SD(4): {Shadow Evade}
12: SD(5): DEX+1, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, {Defensive Roll}
13: SD(6)
14: SD(7): {Slippery Mind}
15: SD(8): Knockdown
16: Fighter (4): DEX+1, Weapon Specialization
17: Rogue (5)
18: Rogue(6): Blind Fight
19: Rogue(7)
20: Rogue(8): DEX+1
21: SD(9): Epic Weapon Focus
22: SD(10): {Improved Evasion}
23: SD(11)
24: SD (12): DEX+1, Blinding Speed
25: SD(13): Epic Shadowlord
26: SD(14)
27: Rogue(9): Epic Dodge
28: Fighter(5): DEX+1
29: Fighter(6): Epic Weapon Specialization
30: Rogue(10): Armor Skin, ESF: Discipline

Stats (naked/optimal gear & buffs)
Fort: 15/21 +3 v spells
Reflex: 26/32 +3 v spells
Will: 10/10 +3 v spells
HP: 342/522
AB: 29/41
AC: 26/54

Skills Points: 295
Discipline 32, Tumble 30, Hide 30, MS 30, Search 25, Open Lock 30, Disable Trap 15, Set Trap 26, UMD 20, Spellcraft 12 (CC), Bluff 33
(Feel free to move these around to suit your desires - only ones I'd highly advise against changing are discipline, tumble, search & UMD.)

For weapon focus, I'd probably do quarterstaff. Rapier's crit threat range doesn't matter as much on a Dex character, and you won't be getting the Rogue weapon feat sharing until level 30, which is a long time to go with a gimped off-hand weapon. +2 AB from quarterstaff is handy on a low AB build like this as well. No expertise/improved expertise, because in PvE your summoned shadow is nigh invincible (I have an epic SD with 22 AC, it's practically irrelevant) , and in PvP you're mostly gonna be running away.

Put this together pretty quickly, so there could well be errors.

[Aburu01]

Thank you all very much.

[Baron Saturday]

Put this together pretty quickly, so there could well be errors.

Case in point: I skipped a feat at level 9. Added in Toughness.

[msterswrdsmn]

If you're looking to play a treasure hunter, you'll need skills in search and lore (chest and book shelf loot) open locks and disable traps. You'll also need rogue levels, as a trap with a dc over 35 cannot be disarmed by any non-rogue class.

Spy RP is usually a combination (from my past characters) of rp and interacting, rather than sitting in a corner in stealth. Though, again, lore/search will help to some degree with this with -investigate, which allows you to see a ton of info from blood at higher levels.

Edit:
As someone whose played successful spies before, is there anything in particular you were looking for with spy rp?

[sad_zav]

17/8/5 is a better SD spread. Can go str based and solo for days.

[Baron Saturday]

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the strength SD, but it doesn't really support spy RP as well. It makes an excellent treasure hunter, though! Link for reference: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14977&p=125417

[sad_zav]

Your hide/ms can still get to great levels as str and dex doesn't affect your bluff. If someone wants to break your stealth, they will

[Vrass]

Dont need to be a rogue or use stealth to spy... just go where you need to, blend in, sit, and listen. You would be surprised at how easy collecting valuable information can be, almost nobody ever bothers to check you out or be careful about what they talk about in areas they think are safe heheheh.

[garrbear758]

Honestly I think pure rogue would fit the best, maximizing intelligence and dex for skills and grenade dc. You can use your grenades as a distraction / a means to escape if you get discovered. There is a very, very cheap grenade that causes a 1 round stun, giving you time to get around a corner and sneak away.

Here's my pure rogue build. Definitely not as viable in combat as 24/6, but it'll have 41 dc rogue grenades. You'll also get -track and trackless step due to wild elf, along with not being trackable. Otherwise, this build could easily be duplicated with any race, probably more optimally. You can also change out a lot of the combat feats for skill focuses.

If you really want to focus on traps, replace crippling strike or slippery mind with skill mastery, allowing you to take 20 on set trap while in combat.

For your character idea, I would lower dex and increase intelligence to maximize skill points. Wild elf takes a hit on intelligence, so wood elf might be better if you would like track and not being trackable.

Since you said you like dwarf. A wild dwarf would actually be a perfect choice for this build, netting you track / not leaving tracks, better saves, and a bonus to con with a reduction in cha. It requires a minor reward though.

Rogue(30) Wild Elf

STR: 10
DEX: 20 (+2 Gift) (32)
CON: 12
WIS: 8
INT: 14 (+2 Gift)
CHA: 8

Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Rogue(1): Two Weapon Fighting
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion, Weapon Finesse}
03: Rogue(3): Ambidexterity, {Uncanny Dodge I}
04: Rogue(4): DEX+1 (DEX=23)
05: Rogue(5):
06: Rogue(6): Weapon Focus: Rapier
07: Rogue(7):
08: Rogue(8): DEX+1, (DEX=24)
09: Rogue(9): Expertise
10: Rogue(10): Improved Evasion
11: Rogue(11):
12: Rogue(12): DEX+1, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, (DEX=25)
13: Rogue(13): Crippling Strike
14: Rogue(14):
15: Rogue(15): Improved Expertise
16: Rogue(16): DEX+1, (DEX=26), Defensive Roll
17: Rogue(17):
18: Rogue(18): Blind Fight
19: Rogue(19): Slippery Mind
20: Rogue(20): DEX+1, (DEX=27)
21: Rogue(21): Great Dexterity I
22: Rogue(22)
23: Rogue(23)
24: Rogue(24): DEX+1, (DEX=29) EWF: Rapier, Blinding Speed
25: Rogue(25)
26: Rogue(26)
27: Rogue(27): Armor Skin
28: Rogue(28): DEX+1, (DEX=30)
29: Rogue(29):
30: Rogue(30): Epic Dodge

Grenade DC: 35 w/o Gear. 41 w/ +12 Dex gear

--- Leveling will be a huge pain as you will be pretty weak in direct combat. Once you get your stealth high enough, pickpocket xp can be very good if you can find higher level areas where you aren't detected. In addition, high search and lore will make parties love you, even if you don't bring much to combat.

[Gonagul]

I'm interested in a similar build. In an effort to try and optimize skill point allocations, what kind of ranks should I be looking to hit for Open Locks, Lore, Craft Trap, Disable Trap, Set Trap, Pick Pocket, Hide and Move Silently, Spot and Listen, UMD? How much can I forgo Discipline, Heal and Spellcraft? I'd like to level through grouping mostly, but through pick-pocketing when I have to solo.

[Jack Oat]

Pure Rogue is never a good idea, as you reach a point of diminishing returns after roughly the 24th level. No more speed increases, no more class buffs, nothing but 3d6 more Sneak Attack damage, a few more skill points, and an extra feat that may well be offset by other classes giving extra feats (i.e. Fighter bonus feats, of which you get 4 if you do 6 levels of the class). Also Wild Dwarf is a small-sized creature, so they would have to do shortsword+dagger combo. Even your DCs only end up being 3 higher by pureclassing, which isn't enough to justify losing an entire APR, 6 front-line damage, 2 extra feats pre-epic, 1 more AC, and Discipline from dipping 6 Fighter levels.

The better option for this is the bog-standard 24 Rogue/6 Fighter found here in this thread. Nets you another attack per round, another +1 AB depending on what other build you may go with, more feats for combat-related tasks (which will make PvE easier), 6 extra base damage for when you have to fight something face-to-face and can't Sneak Attack, and above all: Discipline.

Which brings me to...

I'm interested in a similar build. In an effort to try and optimize skill point allocations, what kind of ranks should I be looking to hit for Open Locks, Lore, Craft Trap, Disable Trap, Set Trap, Pick Pocket, Hide and Move Silently, Spot and Listen, UMD?

Open Locks: 5-10 for chests/boxes, just grab gear and be DEX based and you should be fine for the rest. You won't ever be able to get high enough to break into player quarters if they have the DC set to max (which most do). Otherwise the highest DC I know of is 110, which would require an incredible investment.
Lore: Rings can usually do it for you. If you don't want to deal with that, about 8 will suffice to ID most things you'll pick up from mobs.
Craft Trap: 0. This skill is useless. You can get all the traps you need from picking them up through dungeons, rather than desperately scrounging, or paying stupidly high fees, for the materials needed to make subpar traps. Craft Trap doesn't let you make Epic traps, either. Just up to Deadly.
Disable Trap: 5-10 and then grab gear.
Set Trap: Either 0 or 33. Setting traps can be very powerful if you have the points to spend. Operative word there, if.
Pick Pocket: Depends on who you want to be able to steal from. Read up on the rules for it (DC 20 + Spot vs. nonhostile targets, 30 + Spot for hostile targets) and decide.
Hide/Move Silently: 33 each. These are very important.
Spot/Listen: If you can max both, great. If not, pick one. If you can't do that or get near, in most cases I would say it isn't worth the investment.
UMD: 15 after CHA modifier, so usually 16 ranks if you're an 8 CHA character.


And now the bread and butter.

How much can I forgo Discipline,

You absolutely, positively, without a doubt cannot forego Discipline on a melee build. Discipline is one of those skills that makes any other build viable. In fact the only build that I would say can afford to not take, and max out, Discipline is a pureclass Druid because they get the one shape that gets Immunity: Knockdown.

If you do not take Discipline, you will be KD bait for just about everyone.

Heal,

Heal is Quality-of-Life, and I'd say it's more important than say maxing out Listen if you're already getting Spot, for instance. Especially on a DEX character who doesn't have great carry capacity, the ability to tote fewer Healing Kits and make them count for more is imperative to your class's survivability.

and Spellcraft?

Spellcraft you can get away with not taking sort of, but even then I'd say it's pretty important, even if you're just cross-classing some points.

I'd like to level through grouping mostly, but through pick-pocketing when I have to solo.

The issue with trying to get away with this is that Pick Pocket doesn't give an incredible amount of XP, and some mobs are random generated to have extremely high detect skills, meaning you can't just sneak around them or avoid them. They will come after you. So it's better to be prepared and able for a fight, which 30 Rogue just, sadly, isn't. As for party PvE, a Rogue can make a great frontline tank since DEX based means good AC, but where they really shine is as the one being guarded since they do most of their damage in Sneak Attacks.

[Gonagul]

Fabulous reply Jack Oat. As someone fairly new to Arelith and NWN in general it's been difficult to detect where the rubber meets the road concerning skills and where they sit within the server's mechanics and realm-wide DC's. Your post was concise and comprehensive. Thank you!