Overwhelming Critical

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Cybernet21
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Overwhelming Critical

Post by Cybernet21 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:29 am

Not getting too much into specifics,just generally speaking. Is overwhelming critical worth it? (On a 17-20 crit range)
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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:04 am

I personally like cleave and great cleave. And if you're already getting them? I see little reason NOT to get Overwhelming Critical unless you need 'Epic Fortitude' or something like that.

I am told Epic Fortitude is the new meta for weapon masters, however and to skip out on Overwhelming Critical.

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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Dagonlives » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:34 am

I think unless you are playing a weaponmaster, and even then it's debatable... I'd rather take Epic Fortitude, one other save feat and epic strength x2.

Overwhelming crit is great. All the feats that lead up to it are not however.
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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by TimeAdept » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:47 am

I'd skip it every time for saves feats on the 20/3/7, the 11/3/16, and anything else that might opt to get it.

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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Kenji » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:14 am

I believe this quote summarizes about the feat up nicely, to quote Peppermint from Discord: "I've always seen overwhelming critical as a 'win more' feat. It's only going to give you more damage against opponents with relatively low AC; but against those opponents, you're going to out DPS them anyway."

If one has to sacrifice even just 1AB for Overwhelming Crit (usually 1 epic feat and 2 or 3 pre-epic feats, which leads to 1 main stat reduction and loss of a few save feats), then the build will perform worse on average against a high AC opponent. Numbers can be seen in this spreadsheet, 4th tab

But then watching big numbers pop off can be oddly satisfying, however rare those occurrences they may be.

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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:49 am

It's absolutely worth it and anyone who tells you otherwise is a balloon.

Unless:

you can't afford this feat in the first place, and it's req feats

fighting undead creatures is your only calling ( or anything that is immune to critical hits for that matter )

there is a feat which is more worthwhile ( something along the lines of armor skin and epic focus )

you sort of never crit in the first place, for whatever reason

And to make it sort of really easy for you, most high fighter builds should take it 99% of the time.

Oh and if you're playing a weaponmaster without overwhelming critical you're doing it wrong, unless you're dual wielding, in which case you get a mini-pass.

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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Kenji » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:41 am

Indeed, one can easily argue that the vs High AC case mostly applies to few boss fights and PvP battles, which hardly makes up for the experiences on Arelith.

For mining and grinding purposes, overwhelming crit is definitely a solid choice, if anything, a must have!

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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Jack Oat » Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:32 pm

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:49 am
It's absolutely worth it and anyone who tells you otherwise is a balloon.

Unless:

you can't afford this feat in the first place, and it's req feats

fighting undead creatures is your only calling ( or anything that is immune to critical hits for that matter )

there is a feat which is more worthwhile ( something along the lines of armor skin and epic focus )

you sort of never crit in the first place, for whatever reason

And to make it sort of really easy for you, most high fighter builds should take it 99% of the time.

Oh and if you're playing a weaponmaster without overwhelming critical you're doing it wrong, unless you're dual wielding, in which case you get a mini-pass.
Funny enough I had this same argument against Peppermint, of OWC vs. 3 STR feats for 30 STR, and I lost. The extra STR has higher AB and dmg margins that just put out more against higher AC foes.

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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:18 pm

I agree completely if the game somehow allows you to take 2-3 greater strength feats pre-epic.

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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Kenji » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:22 pm

Taking OWC means giving up an epic feat that could be allocated to Great Str, this essentially translates to possibly allocating 3 more base stats from character creation to make up that 1 str stat. Since even if it's just a 1AB/1DMG difference in between taking OWC or having more str, the build will perform worse vs high AC opponents. In the case of the number showcased, it's a standard WM's max AC at 58 AC.

If I were to interpret the above data, it'd be: If one can somehow take OWC without losing any base Str in the process, then, by all means, they should consider taking OWC. But it's likely that the build will lose out a few pre-epic save feats in the process of getting OWC, which others have deemed the saves more important than getting more dmg out of the crits.

Regarding the save feats being more important than extra crit. dmg or not, I have no numbers or statistics to support anything.

Let's look at Build A and Build B: Courtesy of builds from The Cookie-Cutter Builds and Arelith Discord, #Build-Dump
Build A has the following compared to Build B:
  1. 1 less AB (Due to no EP)
  2. 3 fewer stats allocation (translates to 30 less hp, 1 less fort save, and 33 less skill points)
  3. 2 less save feats (can be traded for Disarm, as noted)
  4. Disarm feats on top of KD
  5. 10 more Discipline
If one were to try and squeeze in OWC:
For build A, it'd most likely mean the loss of:
  • Disarm/Imp. Disarm feats (trade for cleave and G. cleave)
  • Possibly IKD (for Power Attack)
  • ESF: Disc (to take OWC)
It still has the same amount of AB, but the overall AB is still 1 less than Build B.

For Build B, to squeeze in OWC without changing the stats, it'd most likely be the loss of:
  • Save feats (trade for cleave and G. cleave)
  • Epic Prowess (to take OWC)
  • IKD (for Power Attack)
This build now has 1 less AB than before, but retains the extra 3 stats (30 hp, 1 fort save, 33 skill points).
Tarkus the dog wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:49 am
Oh and if you're playing a weaponmaster without overwhelming critical you're doing it wrong, unless you're dual wielding, in which case you get a mini-pass.
On the contrary, I'm going to state that since WMs can be feat restricted as seen above, only pure Fighter and/or CoT builds with even more feat allocations have the luxury of taking OWC without giving much thought. For WMs, the main argument would be the loss of save feats, which is beyond my area of expertise and I will leave that to the veterans here.
Last edited by Kenji on Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Tarkus the dog
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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:29 pm

My main argument is that the sole purpose of the WM builds is to crit, and owc just helps you with that exact thing. I forgot about a few builds that can't afford this feat, but that's a different story.

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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Kenji » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:36 pm

Do you have other WM builds that allows more feats? I figured the 20/7/3 ones are the bare minimal WM builds out there that gave far more feat freedom than the more specialized WM builds such as 11 Ftr / 16 WM / 3 Rogue. I'm all ears (and eyes) if you do!

And the main point here is that OWC only gives more crit dmg, it doesn't improve crit chances or AB or better average damage vs High AC opponents, all the while making one to take more feats to get to it, which is why it's now taken off of most of the more PvP-oriented builds.

Again, if one has mining and grinding in mind where the ore veins and monsters don't have the AC to warrant the "vs High AC scenario", PA and OWC are actually far more favored.

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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Dirac » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:02 am

Kenji and I cranked the numbers on this a long time ago. Assuming base dmg for both at 35.5, This the mean dmg vs deltaAC curve. You can do a comparison between the dmg trade-off from either taking OWC or Prowess. For lower deltaACs OWC performs better but there is a cross-over around 9, then +1 AB outperforms at higher deltaACs.

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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Dirac » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:16 pm

That y-axis should read "mean total dmg per attack". Bear in mind the weapon critical range is scimitar with weapon master so 10-20 and a X3 multiplier.

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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Jack Oat » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:48 am

Kenji3108 wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:22 pm
Stuff.
Build A (mine) has Epic Prowess. I just forgot to add it in. Not taking ESF: Disc on a melee build like a WM is begging for a Truestrike KD. Basically it amounts to ESF: Disc and -33 skill points (that you don't really need for anything critical) vs. no ESF: Disc and the extra 33 skill points. I'd go with the former.
Tarkus the dog wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:18 pm
I agree completely if the game somehow allows you to take 2-3 greater strength feats pre-epic.
You don't, but bear in mind that most 20/7/3 OWC builds take Great Cleave and OWC in Epics, which are at least 2 feats freed up. Then that third extra. You can find the full write-up of a non-OWC WM in the "Build A" that Kenji linked.

EDIT: To crunch numbers, an OWC WM gets 47 AB (assuming Human), a base damage of 37 per hit on avg., and an extra 3d6 on a crit.
The GS WM gets 49 AB (assuming Human), a base damage of 39 per hit on avg., and no extra crit damage.
This comes out to only 4.5 extra damage on a crit from the OWC vs. the GS, but extra base damage and higher AB on the GS, which amounts to higher overall damage against targets with greater than mid-30s AC.

I use a tool to calculate DPS that, admittedly, has its flaws, but for a damage calculation this simple it's fairly reliable. You can find the graph and information about what I'm talking about here.

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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Tarkus the dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:19 am

Alright Jack, after giving the 'Build A' a careful look I finally receive the wake-up call that I really needed.

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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Kenji » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:27 am

Jack Oat wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:48 am
Kenji3108 wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:22 pm
Stuff.
Build A (mine) has Epic Prowess. I just forgot to add it in. Not taking ESF: Disc on a melee build like a WM is begging for a Truestrike KD. Basically it amounts to ESF: Disc and -33 skill points (that you don't really need for anything critical) vs. no ESF: Disc and the extra 33 skill points. I'd go with the former.
Thanks for the correction.
Jack Oat wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:48 am
... 20/7/3 OWC builds take Great Cleave and OWC in Epics, which are at least 2 feats freed up. Then that third extra.
Why not trade Toughness for G. Cleave instead of an epic feat? I believe I've got some data sitting somewhere stating that the gain of 1 AB means an average of 16 dmg per round gained, which should mean an engagement beyond 2 rounds should outperform the gain from toughness. Provided that the epic feat can somehow attain that extra AB, of course.

I might have to either find the data or redo that portion of the numbers for WM so there's more of a solid evidence to the claim.

This is assuming a 1v1 mirror scenario and one's also not taking Maximized IGMS into account, of course.

Edit: From the looks of it, disarm and improved disarm can be traded for PA and Cleave, G. Cleave can then replace either Toughness or IKD, resulting in no loss of AB if ESF: Disc is traded for OWC.

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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Jack Oat » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:17 pm

Kenji3108 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:27 am
Why not trade Toughness for G. Cleave instead of an epic feat?
Edit: From the looks of it, disarm and improved disarm can be traded for PA and Cleave, G. Cleave can then replace either Toughness or IKD, resulting in no loss of AB if ESF: Disc is traded for OWC.
Then what we have is this chart instead. All it really does is push the minimum AC for 30 base STR build to outdamage back to mid-40s AC, but tbh those lines are so close that it doesn't really matter.

You wouldn't trade ESF: Disc for OWC which, again, you should never be getting rid of ESF: Disc on your WM. Bear in mind that the traditional OWC WM has an extra Epic feat in its line-up anyway, which is usually used for saves. This could easily be transferred to a Great Strength I, and then as you said G. Cleave could replace IKD/Toughness pre-epic and that frees up an Epic feat for Great Strength II, which puts your hypothetical OWC WM at 28 STR with Overwhelming Critical. I'll include a full write-up shortly as an edit.

TECHNICALLY the higher damage one is still the 30 STR one for any target with even moderate AC. But at this point we're arguing semantics and personal preferences. I'd rather snag Disarm feats and only effectively lose Toughness than burn them getting PA/Cleave/Great Cleave.

EDIT: The build write up, as promised: 20/7/3 w/ OWC + GS2

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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by strong yeet » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:33 am

Overwhelming critical is fun so I take it as much as I can =)

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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Hunter548 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:53 am

strong yeet wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:33 am
Overwhelming critical is fun so I take it as much as I can =)
you know what's more fun

seeing 42 strength on your character sheet : )
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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:06 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:53 am
you know what's more fun

seeing 42 strength on your character sheet : )
It must be a merchant's dream to have that much strength. How much can a character like that carry?


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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by Jack Oat » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:31 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:06 pm
Hunter548 wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:53 am
you know what's more fun

seeing 42 strength on your character sheet : )
It must be a merchant's dream to have that much strength. How much can a character like that carry?
7093 pounds, heavily encumbered after 10820 pounds.

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Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


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Re: Overwhelming Critical

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:39 pm

Oh wow! :shock: None of my characters have ever carried more than 1000 pounds on them.
One of these days I'll make a strength-based character :lol:


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