Dorf Build

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Fortis
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Dorf Build

Post by Fortis » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:11 pm

I am very new here so please bare with me. Just really found the server a week ago after trying it out once years ago.

S0, I am looking to make my character Fortis a Dwarven "Paladin" ...He calls himself a Paladin, because he considers himself a Holy Knight of Moradin, but he isn't a "real" paladin.

My plan for him is fighter 10 /dwarven defender 10/champion of torm 10.

Kind of vanilla, not overly powerful, but fun, good RP as a protector, and tough in a melee fight, and it makes sense for him as how I envision him to be....

My question is, at the higher levels will he be playable that way? No UMD, no evasion, no spells, no uber powerful hits (no epic weapon specialization), but would have decent saves, 15 damage reduction and ridiculous HP's from having a 22 constitution. His final strength will be 24.

I love Fortis as a character, but don't want to be running around the fugue all the time in the later levels with a screwed up build.

I appreciate any help!

StrykerMontgomery
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:43 pm

PDK (look up on arelith wiki) might have been better than champion of torm.

The only time people tend to go with no tumble is when they want the bonuses for being 23 (7weapon master) fighter or 28 fighter (again arelith wiki class changes would be really useful). You lose out on 6 ac for having no tumble ans bo umd also hurts your ability to self buff.

No reason you cant get epic weapon specialization. Any bonus feats from fighter or champion of Torm net you epic bonus feats as long as your character is of epic lvl. So if you look at the epic bonus feats list from either fighter or champion, you will get an idea of what is available.

I recommend taking your 10 dwarven lvls before hitting 20 so you can get the most bonus feats possible (same with champion of torm as it has better pre epic saves than a fighter). I also recommend making sure you have enough con for epic damage reduction. To stsck with dwarven defender DR.

Others might recomend changing your lvl ratios. I doubt even 10 of everything is optimal.

What are your stats/feats/levels so far?
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Fortis
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Fortis » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:05 pm

Right now he is level 6.

The epic feats I plan on taking are all for his rp as a protector:

epic damage reduction 1,2,3
Epic prowess
Epic weapon focus
Armor skin
Great strength 1, 2, 3,

level breakdown pre epic would be 7 fighter/3 champ of torn/ DD 10

That nets me an extra epic feat instead of mundane feat which I don't need.

I plan on taking tumble to 15, so would lose 3ac over full tumble.

Pre epic feats:

Luck of hero's
iron will
Blind fight
Weapon focus war hammer
Weapon specialization war hammer
Improved crits war hammer
Knock down
Improved knockdown
Expertise
Improved expertise
Dodge
Toughness

As for PDK, I need to take a closer look at that. I like the feats from champ of torn and especially the increased reflex saves.

But if that would add more survivability, I will have to think about it.

Thanks!!

Alox
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Alox » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:11 pm

Use Magic Device is monumentally good on this server.

You are almost required to take 3 rogue levels and put 15 points into UMD (plus some points extra if you have low charisma).

Fortis
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Fortis » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:22 pm

I was afraid of that. I may have to rethink hips build. Maybe rogue fighter Dd. 6/14/10

That would make me sad though. I might have to make the sacrifice for the sake of rp. Unless it's going to actually get him killed all the time.

Fionn
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Fionn » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:16 pm

Alox wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:11 pm
You are almost required to take 3 rogue levels and put 15 points into UMD (plus some points extra if you have low charisma).
My max is 23, so Paush may require it, but I disagree on 'almost required'. It's nice, but this is not 3T where you need to min/max perfectly.

I'd actually recommend dropping DD in favor of PDK. DR is nice, but I've found the Defensive Stance didn't work at all well. Once you hit PDK5 you'll see your fighter becomes a buffer/tank. Up to you if you want CoT or Ftr for Feats. If you stick with Fighter, you may wish to dip Bard for UMD & Tumble. Ftr 20 gets you a free STR, else go Ftr15/PDK10/Bard5.
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Maladus
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Maladus » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:51 pm

I would also second the notion that UMD is not basically a requirement. It’s usefulness largely depends on what you plan to do with your character and how self-sufficient you need to be. If you don’t foresee yourself engaging in a lot of PVP and don’t plan on trying to solo yourself to 30 (which would be sort of masochistic with a build made for defensive prowess) then you will likely have someone around that can hit you with a few buffs before going adventuring.

That all said, UMD can certainly make life easier.

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Opustus
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Opustus » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:55 pm

Welcome to the server if you're new, btw! You should know that there's a blossoming Dwarven settlement in Arelith but dwarves are seen in other settlements also. I've never had this much fun playing a dwarf before as on Arelith.

As Fionn says, I think the Fighter rather than the DwD variant will do duty better as a protector, but if you want to RP a DwD, a build like RogueorBard5/DwD15/PDK10 is entirely possible if relatively weaker. Also, the optimal version of the Fighter variant would be RogueorBard4/Fighter16/PDK10 going RogueorBard3/Fighter7/PDK10 pre-epic. You just postpone your final Rogue or Bard level until level 27 and finish off with one more feat as compared to the build that goes Fighter15.
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Fortis
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Fortis » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:28 pm

I thought PDK isn't a selectable class??? Did I miss something?

Thanks, everyone!!

Also, PvP really isn't my thing. I like a good arena fight for fun, but in General PvP and I aren't sending each other Christmas cards.

So self sufficiency is good, as so far I find myself starting at least my crawls solo and picking up a party as I run into people, or they me. Hopefully that changes as Fortis makes friends.

What I really want him to be is a big dumb dwarven wall that people like to stand behind and kill things. He is supposed to be a "weapon of mass distraction" not a steely eyed killer himself.

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Opustus
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Opustus » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:43 pm

Then the DwD build could suit you better. Fighter gets more feats and AC (+3 to be exact), but DwD can go full-on defensive and grab the epic damage reduction feats that stack with Dwarven defender's own damage reduction. The fighter would be a lot more rounded and well, kind of strictly better, but DwD can be super defensive too and is a Dwarven defender in an RP sense. The biggest foreseeable problem with the damage reduction build is that it requires 3 epic feats, meaning you would either drop ESF:Disc, which is mainly for PvP, or EWF or Armorskin, which are practical universally.

Just to give you a general example how the two builds would work out:

Dwarven defender as DwD16/Bard4/PDK10 or DwD15/Rogue5/PDK10

Abilities
STR16-> gift to 18-> levelup to 24
DEX13
CON18-> gift to 20-> levelup to 21
INT13
WIS8
CHA6

Pre-epic feats (7 in total): Toughness, Dodge, Weapon focus, Expertise, Improved expertise, Blindfight, Skill focus: Discipline (required feat for PDK)

Epic feats (5 in total): Epic weapon focus, Armorskin, Epic damage reduction1, 2, and 3

Skills: Discipline max, Tumble30, Heal max
^you'd be missing Spellcraft for extra saves, so if going with bard, you'd want to change your starting stats to get INT up to 14


Fighter as Fighter16/Bard4/PDK10 or Fighter16/Rogue4/PDK10

Abilities
STR17-> gift to 19-> levelup to 25-> epic feat to 26
DEX9
CON18-> gift to 20-> levelup to 21
INT14
WIS8
CHA6

Pre-epic feats (11 in total): Weapon focus, Expertise, Improved expertise, Blindfight, Improved critical, Skill focus: Discipline, Weapon specialisation, and 5 other optional feats, such as Toughness, Knockdown, Improved knockdown etc.

Epic feats (9 in total): Epic weapon focus, Epic weapon specialisation, Armorskin, Great strength 1, Epic damage reduction 1, 2, and 3, Epic skill focus: Discipline, 1 optional feat

Skills: Discipline max, Tumble30, Heal max, Spellcraft max
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Fortis
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Fortis » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:25 pm

Man you guys gave me a lot to think about. Thanks!. My plan for his stats right now was:

str 15 +2 gift +5 leveling+ 4 great strength feats
dex 14
Con 18 +2 gift +2 leveling
Int 14
Wis 8
Chr 6

Skills: 33 discipline, 33 heal, 30 tumble, 33 spot. I probably should take the +3 saves vs spells and put those spot points in spellcraft but I like him to be able to see those sneaky sneaky thieves.

Fortis
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Fortis » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:44 am

How much UMD IS necessary, given that his charisma will be a whopping 6?

Fionn
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Fionn » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:54 am

Don't forget Fighters get bonus STR at level 10. Honestly, if you're goal is Wall o'Distraction, not sure you need that much STR. Gear stacks here, so it's also easy to put +1 STR/CON on every piece of gear for +13. +1 Universal Saves too if you don't need the 2nd stat.

I'd consider

str 15 + 4 Epic Feats (you'll want a couple gear points for carry capacity until Epics)
dex 14
Con 18 +2 gift +7 leveling +13 Gear
Int 14 +2 gift
Wis 8
Chr 6

+13 Uni saves Gear
+33 Spellcraft

In any event EDR still needs the base 21 CON.
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StrykerMontgomery
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:48 am

You cant get a plus 13 from gear unless nwn/arelith has changed. 12 is the max magic enhancement.
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Fionn
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Fionn » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:12 am

StrykerMontgomery wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:48 am
12 is the max magic enhancement.
Good catch, not sure where I got 13 from. This includes Bulls Str, so if you have a buffer/wands you may want to keep it at +8 STR/CON and you've a few extra slots for saves or WIS.
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Alox
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Alox » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:17 am

Fortis wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:44 am
How much UMD IS necessary, given that his charisma will be a whopping 6?
6 charisma gives minus 2. So to avoid having to gear for it and stuff, which is quite expensive you should push UMD to 17 so with minus 2 you get 15, which will enable you to use most things.

There are those that might argue for higher UMD in order to be able to use certain items, but with 15 you can use all wands and scrolls, which will be very helpful if you are alone or in a small group. Barkskin is a 4 AC bonus that is just so very useful, and the strength and agility buf are also really useful. Both barkskin and ability bufs last for a long time, so you dont have to reapply them all the time.

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Jagel
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Jagel » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:48 am

If going for CoT I’d suggest ensuring at least 10 rounds duration. With 10 lvls CoT that means 18 cha so you need to max your soft bonus cha via items etc.

Fortis
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Fortis » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:50 am

okay you guys gave me a ton to think about. I am going to totally blow up Fortis and play something I have never played before:

How would: 16 Bard/10 PDK(Protector)/4 Fighter work, do you think?

Between PDK and Bard song/curse song, He could do some ridiculous swings in a battle and still have the protector vibe I want.

I would level like this:

3 fighter
3 PDK
3 bard
2 PDK
4 bard
2 PDK
1 bard
2 pdk
1 Fighter
7 Bard
1 pdk
1 bard

stats:

str: 15 +2 gift +7 leveling and epic feats = 24
Dex: 12
con: 16
wis: 8
chr: 12+2 gift +2 leveling = 16

skills: 168 total
Discipline: 33
Heal: 33
Perform: 27
UMD: 15
spellcraft: 30
tumble: 30

feats: luck of heros, weapon focus, improved crits, curse song, lingering song, extra music, skill focus discipline, blind fight, great strength 1, great strength 2, armor skin, epic weapon focus, epic prowess.

His AB won't be earth shaking but with bard song and PDK abilities that shouldn't matter to terribly much.

Seem like it's doable?

One question, I am thinking of getting him the gift of crafting? I think it's called? you get the +10 to forging or whatever you choose. Is that worth it? Or should I take a different minor gift?

Alox
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Alox » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:53 pm

Unfortunately bard 16 has some problems. The dispel mechanics on this server works like this:

All you bufs you apply by potions/wands/scrolls/etc are dispelled as they were cast at level 30 (their duration and effect is still as the casting level displayed on the item, for instance level 15 for a wand of strength).
UNTILL you cast a spell from your spell book, then you loose this thing and your spells are considered as casted on your caster level.

So the first time you cast a bard spell from your spell book, your bufs now have level 16 defense against dispel while they had level 30 defense before that.

There are many monsters that casts dispel in this game, so in later levels you will experience getting stripped of your bufs relatively often, depending on where you adventure.

If you want to cast spells from your spell book, you should aim for landing on level 26 or so, 24 if you get something good for stopping 24.

With bard 3 or 4 and UMD you can use wands to buf yourself, and enjoy level 30 defense on the bufs.

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Jagel
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Jagel » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:07 pm

Alox is right that 16 bard makes for dispel bait. You probably don’t have to cast any spells for the char to work though, so just keep it in mind.

With 16 bard lvls you don’t need extra music and even lingering song can be swapped out.

Alox
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Alox » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:17 pm

With regards to AB and AC:

If you want to be tanky in pve you want to hit AC 55-60 or above if you can (mobs often has in the range of 40 AB or so at level 30). This includes every buf you can think of, particularly bark skin. For most character builds this is hard to reach without improved expertise.

A good AB for pve is around 35-40. This is fairly easy to reach, though if you need improved expertise to pump your AC high enough, you need 10 extra AB to compensate. So most fighter builds aim to reach 45-50 AB.

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Jagel
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Jagel » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:43 pm

If you have the skill points to max taunt that will help a lot as it potentially negates the penalty from expertise. On hard targets you can song/curse song first to raise your own skill lvl and lower their skills.

Fortis
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Fortis » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:48 pm

So what if I didn't bother with charisma at all, in order to not even have a spell book and rely on scrolls and wands instead? I could use those points to pump up my constitution instead. More strength since I wouldn't have to put two leveling points into charisma and more con.

Song would be unaffected. I would have to take heal down to 28 and take perform to 32 to compensate. Should I be worrying about the +6 saves vs spells from spellcraft? Or should I take taunt?. I feel like the negative effects from the curse song and pdk abilities plus the increase from both would make the taunt not as valuable.

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Jagel
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Jagel » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:03 pm

Spellcraft > taunt.

Fortis
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Re: Dorf Build

Post by Fortis » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:52 pm

Is no spell book viable?

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