AA Build Viability

[Zeskay]

At Baron Saturday's suggestion, I'm positing here. This is the rough build I had in mind. While it seems fun, the saves are absolutely horrible, and I don't really know how much of a problem that will be later on. Figured I'd check before I got in too deep. Currently level 7.

EDIT: UPDATED WITH CURRENT CHANGES (It looks so much better already, thank you!)

Bard(10), Shadowdancer(5), Arcane Archer(15), Moon Elf

Stats:

STR: 14
DEX: 17 + 2 Gift
CON: 10
WIS: 8
INT: 14 + 2 Gift
CHA: 14

Level Progression:

01: Bard(1): Point Blank Shot
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Dodge
04: Bard(4): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
05: Bard(5)
06: Bard(6): Mobility
07: Bard(7)
08: Shadowdancer(1): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
09: Shadowdancer(2): Weapon Focus: Longbow, SD: {Darkvision, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge I}
10: Shadowdancer(3)
11: Arcane Archer(1)
12: Arcane Archer(2): DEX+1, Called Shot, (DEX=22)
13: Arcane Archer(3)
14: Arcane Archer(4)
15: Arcane Archer(5): Blind Fight
16: Arcane Archer(6): DEX+1, (DEX=23)
17: Arcane Archer(7)
18: Arcane Archer(8): Rapid Shot
19: Arcane Archer(9)
20: Bard(8): DEX+1, (DEX=24)
21: Shadowdancer(4): Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow
22: Shadowdancer(5): SD: {Hide in Plain Sight,Defensive Roll}
23: Arcane Archer(10)
24: Arcane Archer(11): DEX+1, Epic Skill Focus: Discipline, (DEX=25)
25: Arcane Archer(12)
26: Arcane Archer(13)
27: Bard(9): Improved Critical: Longbow
28: Arcane Archer(14): DEX+1, Blinding Speed, (DEX=26)
29: Arcane Archer(15)
30: Bard(10): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=27)

Other:

Hitpoints: 190
Skillpoints: 241
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 13/18/28
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +7, Mind Effects: +2, Traps: +1
BAB: 22
AB (max, naked): 24 (melee), 41 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 24/28
Spell Casting: Bard(4)


Skills:
Discipline 33(45), Hide 33(41), Move Silently 33(41), Perform 13(15), Search 21(26), Spellcraft 33(36), Spot 25(26), Tumble 30(38), UMD 20(22)

Final Thoughts:

Nothing is set on stone, aside of what I need for SD and AA. I have Haste as a bard, so Blinding Speed seemed redundant. At that point she'll likely be wearing cloth for freedom of movement, so spell failure wouldn't be an issue.

I haven't seen anything remotely like this under the AA builds, so I'm not sure how viable it is. I like the level progression up to level 20, but after that it's more of a wild projection, and it might be a long time before I even get there. As for epic level order, I'm not sure if I should grab AA 10 for Death Arrow before going back to SD or not. If I want Enchant Arrow X, then I would have the drop 2 of the post 20 SD levels, so it would be essentially pointless to take any. I know the late SD levels might not be optimal, but seemed fun for flavor / RP, and some utility.

I don't see this character being PvP oriented. Would be nice to be able to defend myself / others, but more of a last resort thing. I don't even know if I'll make it to 20, but I would like her to be useful in combat late game if it comes down to that.

Anyway, this is getting too long. Comments, tweaks, and suggestions welcome!

Thanks in advance!

[illcat]

If you absolutely must have HIPS I'd drop the 6th level for sure as your shadow isn't going to be worth much aside for RP if you want it. As for blinding speed being redundant the thing with it is that it's not use per day on arelith and it doesn't have to be cast, so you lose a round casting haste or you can use a free action to make it happen and then get a full hasted round off and a decent duration anyhow.

[Zeskay]

If you absolutely must have HIPS I'd drop the 6th level for sure as your shadow isn't going to be worth much aside for RP if you want it. As for blinding speed being redundant the thing with it is that it's not use per day on arelith and it doesn't have to be cast, so you lose a round casting haste or you can use a free action to make it happen and then get a full hasted round off and a decent duration anyhow.

Thanks for your input!

I don't know that I must have HiPS, it just seems it could add some fun / flavor to RP or some utility in tricky situations. Should I drop 6th level for another AA or Bard?

Good point about the Blinding Speed mechanics, I wasn't aware of that. Sounds a lot more appealing this way.

[Opustus]

Bard song improves at bard levels 6, 8, and 11, which is a nice boost to AB and damage overall even if sparse and short in duration. Seeing as you're already Bard7, you want to save the level 8 for Tumble and Discipline dump at level 27 the earliest but optimally at level 30 for full ranks into Discipline.

From here you have to paths to tread: Bard8/SD5/AA17 or Bard8/SD7/AA15. The level 7 SD is solely for Slippery mind as with proper gearing you would have a respectable will and the double will roll from Slippery mind adds some safety against mages (although mind-affecting spells aren't the preferred strategy in PvP!). AA17 is just +1 AB and damage, and offence is what AA excels in, so it's natural one would bolster that aspect of a build.

As a side note, HiPS is a great quality of life improvement for archer builds as it helps you kite and elude your enemies when you get aggroed. It's also a very kewl RP concept! I would definitely have already made a Bard7/SD14/AA9 build if it were possible to switch off the shadow summon's behaviour where the shadow always blinks to the character's location. This makes playing a dedicated SD archer virtually impossible as you would need some distance from your foes so as not to provoke attacks of opportunity.

[StrykerMontgomery]

In case you are not aware, ranger also makes you qaulify for arcane archer with no need for arcane levels. Since you plan on also being a SD. Bard and ranger have your discipmine needs covered. Ranger path archer also gives nice bonuses

I would like to discuss what you intend on doing with your bard spellcasting. With 8 levels of bard (along with a positive charisma score), you will only have a caster lvl of 8. Not only will your bard spells, which can easily be substituted with wands and potions, be dispelled by anything in the game, but the effectiveness of wands and potions will be dominished greatly.

The game engine, when lacking the ability to cast spells, normally treats your character level as your caster level when using things like wands and potions. So not only will all your wands and potions bew dispelled by everything, but they will also have a much shorter duration.

[Zeskay]

Bard song improves at bard levels 6, 8, and 11, which is a nice boost to AB and damage overall even if sparse and short in duration. Seeing as you're already Bard7, you want to save the level 8 for Tumble and Discipline dump at level 27 the earliest but optimally at level 30 for full ranks into Discipline.

I currently take Bard(8) at level 20 for a skill dump, and then again at 30. But there is truth to Bard 9 is otherwise useless, I'm only taking it for the skills. I just don't know what to expect in terms of leveling progression. I might never even see level 30, which is why I have the "early" level 20 skill point dump worked in.

From here you have to paths to tread: Bard8/SD5/AA17 or Bard8/SD7/AA15. The level 7 SD is solely for Slippery mind as with proper gearing you would have a respectable will and the double will roll from Slippery mind adds some safety against mages (although mind-affecting spells aren't the preferred strategy in PvP!). AA17 is just +1 AB and damage, and offence is what AA excels in, so it's natural one would bolster that aspect of a build.

You raise good points. I'm torn here. Slippery Mind IS tempting, but not sure it's 2 levels of SD tempting, especially since it seems that being ranged the shadow will be pretty useless outside of RP. To get Enchant Arrow X and HiPS, I would also have to do away with my Bard 9 skill point dump at level 20. Decisions are hard.

---------

In case you are not aware, ranger also makes you qaulify for arcane archer with no need for arcane levels. Since you plan on also being a SD. Bard and ranger have your discipmine needs covered. Ranger path archer also gives nice bonuses.

I found out about this a little bit too late.

I would like to discuss what you intend on doing with your bard spellcasting. With 8 levels of bard (along with a positive charisma score), you will only have a caster lvl of 8. Not only will your bard spells, which can easily be substituted with wands and potions, be dispelled by anything in the game, but the effectiveness of wands and potions will be dominished greatly.

Good points that I didn't consider. Honestly, bard was mostly for skills UMD, Tumble (helps with kiting), early buffs, haste till I can get Blinding Speed, and last but not least RP. If I forgo spellcasting, would you substitute Rogue (sneak attacks but no discipline) for Bard levels to get access to skills, or stick to Ranger without UMD/Tumble?

---

Thanks for the great input so far!

[StrykerMontgomery]

I mostly brought up bard because yoirbsex seemed a little low and i noticed your 14 cha.

You dont want to gain cast slots as a ranger or you might have same problem of dispellable etc. (Unfortunately I can't think of a way ot having less wisdom and starting as ranger. Starting as a ranger does give archer path though)

Writs make getting to 20 a lot easier these days.

If you want both shadow dancer and arcane archer, you have to take an arcane class or ranger. (3 class limit) Ranger is the only non arcane class that qualifies for AA in Arelith.

I believe shadow dancer gives both umd and tumble.

[msterswrdsmn]

I'm not seeing called shot in your build; you're absolutely going to want that. Being able to drop dangerous enemies down to 10%-5% movement speed is going to do a lot for you in terms of survivability or team support (-15 AB total possible against dex enemies)

[Zeskay]

If you want both shadow dancer and arcane archer, you have to take an arcane class or ranger. (3 class limit) Ranger is the only non arcane class that qualifies for AA in Arelith.

I believe shadow dancer gives both umd and tumble.

You are absolutely right. I just thought AA / SD would be fun to RP, I know it may seem like an odd choice, hence why I'm posting here to see if it's viable. SD has tumble, but no UMD unfortunately.

---

I'm not seeing called shot in your build; you're absolutely going to want that. Being able to drop dangerous enemies down to 10%-5% movement speed is going to do a lot for you in terms of survivability or team support (-15 AB total possible against dex enemies)

Thanks for pointing that out, complete oversight on my part. When do you recommend picking it up? Early on, or after 20?

[msterswrdsmn]

Early-ish, but its not something you really need to pick up right away unless you have a free feat to burn. Early on, your AB isn't going to be high enough to reliably make called shot stick (especially with rapid shot up).

[Baron Saturday]

Hey, so. Let's talk about those Great Dex feats. What's going on there? Because, remember, you get a point to put into stats for free every 4 levels.

Assuming your current stats are ST 14/DX 19/CN 10/WS 8/IN 16/CH 14 and you're level 7, that means you can put 6 more points into Dex without using a single feat. That bumps you up to 25 Dex, so at most you would want to take Great Dex 1 to even that out to 26. That frees up 3 epic feats, one of which should be Blinding Speed. Another should be ESF Discipline. For the third, I'd suggest one of two choices: Epic Will or Called Shot.

Stryker, you're a little misinformed about spellcasting and how it affects item caster level. It's fine to HAVE spell slots, that alone won't make your wands and potions super dispellable. You just can't USE any of your spells, or your item caster level will drop until the next reset.

Gear: Try to get Dex & Con bonuses on everything you possibly can. Between gear and an Endurance spell, you should be able to hit 22 Con, which is a much-needed +6 to your Fort save, in addition to lots of extra HP. Also check out the Penumbral Vestment, which is a nice SD-only cloth armor. If you could get your hands on... I think a middle-tier tailoring rune? You should be able to add runic to it and have it enchanted with +1 Dex as well.

Skills: You should absolutely, 100% max the spellcraft skill. It gives you +1 to saves v spells & spell-like abilities for every 5 ranks, INCLUDING bonuses from stats and gear. 33 ranks +3 from Int + 14 from gear puts you at 50 spellcraft, giving you an effective +10 to all saves. Yummy. You can dump the extra points into this, and also drop UMD a bit, since unless you're going for a specific bit of equipment with a super-high UMD requirement, 15-20 UMD is enough to use any wand or scroll you might want. I'm also going to strongly suggest you consider the Search skill. For reasons which I cannot actually reveal but which are pretty cool and related to SD. If finding secrets is your thing, you will thank me.

Final thought: I wouldn't worry about your class composition too much. Bard 9/SD 6/AA 15 isn't 100% optimal (actually, I'd probably change that to Bard 10/SD 5/AA 15 if you want to keep those mid-level skill dumps in, since SD 6 really does get you nothing), but it's not as though 1 more AB & damage from 17 AA or Slippery Mind from 7 SD is going to make or break your character.

[StrykerMontgomery]

Thankyou baron. Question remains then, does he want cha 14?

[Baron Saturday]

I mean, lowest Cha could be dropped would be 11, since bard is the starting class. That gets 3 more stat points, 2 of which could go into Con, and the last would probably go back into Cha. I don't know that remaking a character for a +1 Con bonus is particularly worthwhile. I'd just stick with what's already done, personally.

[Zeskay]

Hey, so. Let's talk about those Great Dex feats. What's going on there? Because, remember, you get a point to put into stats for free every 4 levels.

Hahaha. Pure filler. Before my 10 year hiatus, I played on a server with very slow XP, going into epic levels took a ridiculous long time, so I didn't put much thought into it.

Assuming your current stats are ST 14/DX 19/CN 10/WS 8/IN 16/CH 14 and you're level 7, that means you can put 6 more points into Dex without using a single feat. That bumps you up to 25 Dex, so at most you would want to take Great Dex 1 to even that out to 26. That frees up 3 epic feats, one of which should be Blinding Speed. Another should be ESF Discipline. For the third, I'd suggest one of two choices: Epic Will or Called Shot.

I like this a lot. Some questions on this Since I don't have SF Discipline, I can't get ESF. Is it still worth it? I was thinking about replacing Rapid Shot with Called Shot early on, not sure how much the -2 penalty will hurt late game. Is it viable?

Skills: You should absolutely, 100% max the spellcraft skill.

I didn't even think about that, thanks for pointing that out.

I have updated the original post to reflect some of the suggestions so far. Thank you very much!

[Zeskay]

Thankyou baron. Question remains then, does he want cha 14?

Mostly for RP reasons. It also gives me spell slots to cast things at lower levels. I'm new to the server, and can't really afford to stock up on wands or potions just yet, so being able to cast some minor buffs on myself and others helps a ton. From what the Baron said, it doesn't seem like I'm missing out on much, thankfully.

[Baron Saturday]

You actually don't need SF: Discipline to pick up ESF: Discipline, the only prereq is 20 ranks in the skill.

I would hang on to Rapid Shot, though you could certainly push it later in the build. With 26 base Dex (so buffable to 38), you're looking at an AB of 50, 52 with bard song, so you're not exactly hurting there. Actually, I might suggest shuffling feats around thusly:

12: Called Shot
15: Blind Fight
18: Rapid Shot
And then Improved Crit last of all, since a 5% crit chance increase is gonna be less valuable than an extra attack or the ability to cripple opponents.

Mostly for RP reasons. It also gives me spell slots to cast things at lower levels. I'm new to the server, and can't really afford to stock up on wands or potions just yet, so being able to cast some minor buffs on myself and others helps a ton. From what the Baron said, it doesn't seem like I'm missing out on much, thankfully.

Yeah, should be fine. I would just not use Bard spells once you're past level 10, by which point you should have enough income to stock up on wands & potions anyhow.

EDIT:

Search 21(26)

Awww yiss.

[Zeskay]

You actually don't need SF: Discipline to pick up ESF: Discipline, the only prereq is 20 ranks in the skill.

You are right, I'm using a spreadsheet, and it was telling me it wasn't a valid choice, but that was before I worked the dump point bard levels back in. Once I did, I could add it just fine.

I'm going to have to delevel myself back to 6.999999 so I can pick up those points in Spellcraft, since I won't see any Bard levels again to pick that up for a while.

Thanks again for all your help!

[Opustus]

Baron is dope yo!

[The Kriv]

I'm not sure if I should grab AA 10 for Death Arrow before going back to SD or not.

I've had three AA's on the server so far, with one of them actually making it to 30, (15 levels of AA in that character) and across about a year of play on that lvl 30 AA, I had very little use and success with DEATH ARROW.

Death Arrow success is a fluke. Yeah when it hits it's like you've hit the lottery, but you should expect it to not hit 95% of the time... because that's going to be the % chance of success of every Death Arrow that's actually worth shooting.

Also... on this server... as an archer you are going to find it very very VERY VERY difficult to solo areas that are equal to your character level. One shot will pull an entire group on your head, and so you will effectively be operating as: SHOOT -- fall back! -- SHOOT -- fall back!

As such, I am seeing your CON starting out at 10. You are going to want to really buff that CON score with enchants.

With 190 hitpoints and under 30 AC... things/groups that have archer compliments to them (Boogins, Talassiance, GOBLINS!) are going to murder you... quickly.

Maybe back in THE DAY when a lot of the research of Archer Builds was initially made, and for everyone who has -NOT- played a dedicated Archer since the AI of the mobs changed... successful dedicated Archer Builds __REQUIRE__ good HP -or- Good AC -or- fantastic mobility/speed!! to survive alone. You can no longer survive without at minimum one of these and expect to be very successful in any solo situation against a fellow ranged opponent... not if you have any expectation of traveling alone.

until you get that BLINDING SPEED... expect to be very cautious... and/or always have haste at the ready.


BUT...

If you don't intend to EVER go solo... then low AC -and- low HP won't matter as much and you should be okay.

[Zeskay]

So, the AA came off the shelf, and I have been having a lot of fun with her. Did some tweaks to the build I was originally going for as I learned more about the server.

Here's where she's at now, and what I'm planning for her:

Level Progression

01: Bard(1): Point Blank Shot
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Dodge
04: Bard(4): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
05: Bard(5)
06: Bard(6): Mobility
07: Bard(7)
08: Shadowdancer(1): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
09: Shadowdancer(2): Weapon Focus: Longbow, SD: {Darkvision, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge I}
10: Shadowdancer(3)
11: Arcane Archer(1)
12: Arcane Archer(2): DEX+1, Called Shot, (DEX=22)
13: Arcane Archer(3)
14: Arcane Archer(4)
15: Arcane Archer(5): Blind Fight
16: Arcane Archer(6): DEX+1, (DEX=23)
17: Arcane Archer(7)
18: Arcane Archer(8): Rapid Shot
19: Arcane Archer(9)
20: Shadowdancer(4): DEX+1, (DEX=24)
21: Shadowdancer(5): Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow, SD: {Defensive Roll, Hide in Plain Sight}
22: Arcane Archer(10)
23: Arcane Archer(11)
24: Arcane Archer(12): DEX+1, Improved Critical: Longbow, (DEX=25)
25: Arcane Archer(13) <-- CURRENT LEVEL
26: Arcane Archer(14): Blinding Speed
27: Arcane Archer(15): Armor Skin
28: Arcane Archer(16): DEX+1, (DEX=26)
29: Arcane Archer(17)
30: Bard(8): Epic Skill Focus: Discipline

Statistic

Hitpoints: 194
Skillpoints: 241
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 13/13/28
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +7, Mind Effects: +2, Traps: +1
BAB: 22
AB (max, naked): 24 (melee), 42 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 26/30
Spell Casting: Bard(3)
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:

Discipline 33(45), Hide 33(41), Move Silently 33(41), Perform 13(15), Search 15(20), Spellcraft 33(36), Spot 32(33), Tumble 30(38), UMD 13(15), Ride 6(14)

Dropped the middle of the road Bard level skill dumps, picked up ride, borrowed from search to put in spot. So far she's doing pretty good. As expected her AC is a bit of an issue, but HiPS lets her duck out of trouble, recover, and finish them off. She's a glass cannon and it fits the character.

With that in mind, is Armor Skin really worth it? It doesn't feel like 2 AC is going to make much of a difference when her AC is in the low to mid 40s. Perhaps pick up the new and improved ESF: Hide/MS? That would put her over 80 in Hide.

I'm still toying with the idea of SD 7, BUT with a final 20 will save with Spellcraft, it doesn't seem like slippery mind would help a ton. Still somewhat torn on this one.

As always, input appreciated. Thank you for helping me make her somewhat viable, and a ton of fun to play so far!

[Ebonstar]

the squishyness if you get hit is one red flag imo

194 hp for some builds if you get hit is a one hit kill

and not even crits just normal hits, crits you wouldnt even know until reading the log what had happened

I would have jack look hard at this

[Zeskay]

Yes, she is extremely squishy. But other than stacking CON via enchants where she can, and having endurance on at all times, I'm not sure what can be done to alleviate that.

[Astral]

Yes, she is extremely squishy. But other than stacking CON via enchants where she can, and having endurance on at all times, I'm not sure what can be done to alleviate that.

Do not cast bard spells if you use UMD like con potions. A con potion being dispelled is often 60-90 hp lost. Its a painful dispel to take. Gearing +8 or +10 con on your gear is possible via runes and still having nearly max dex. That should already make your unbuffed HP over 300 which is somewhat alright for archers imo. Adding hips for extra trickery when a melee enemy closes the distance on you should over all put you in a pretty good spot in terms of survivability.