Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

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TheShadowdove
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Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by TheShadowdove » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:50 pm

Hey folks,

Looking for two builds for two players who want to check out the underdark for the first time.

We want to play a Feylock and her bard servant.

Hoping for a traditional high ac, curse song, unforgettable bard song, parties love to have him style high level bard.

The feylock is fine as the traditional pure Feylock.

Perhaps you could help us choose starting stats and fit builds to the characters?

We've read into the drow guidelines and such and want to see this place and get a taste of the rp down in the underdark, as well as explore somewhere new.

Thanks!

The1Kobra
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by The1Kobra » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:46 pm

Okay so, for a Drow Bard, you probably want either the 20/6/4 Bard/Fighter/Blackguard build, or the 26/4 Bard/Blackguard build. Getting divine might and divine shield is too valuable for a bard to skip. Another alternative would be to splash spellsword, mostly for the 5 ASF reduction so you can cast in greensteel armor without trouble. You do however have a lot of feats to cover so the bard/fighter/BG version may be the best one available.

I'll make one for the 20/6/4 Bard/Fighter/BG variant:

Go 12/4/4 Pre-epic, 20/6/4 epic
Stats:
16/12/12/14/8/14
With drow that makes it:
16/12/12/16/8/16
Get +STR and +CHA if you can with your gifts.

Your pre-epic feats should include: Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cleave, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Curse Song, Still Spell, Blind Fight, IMPR Crit, Weapon Specialization
Your epic feats should be: Epic Weapon Focus, Armor Skin, Epic Weapon Specialization, Lasting Inspiration, Great Strength 1
Put your level up points into STR.


Now for the Feylock.
30 Bard is probably best. You'll probably want to focus on CHA, but DEX is an important second stat so you can hit with your touch attacks. CON after that.

Stats:
10/16/12/14/8/16
After Drow: 10/16/12/16/8/18
Gift CHA and DEX if you can.

For pre-epic feats, you have plenty to spare. Get: Blind Fight, SF Enchantment, GSF Enchantment. The rest are mostly optional. Extend spell makes your hastes a bit more convenient. Spell penetration can help against foes with SR. SF+GSF transmutation makes slow a nice offensive spell. You can also grab weapon finesse for situations where you can't cast.

For epic feats, just get Armor Skin, Epic Prowess, and all the great charisma you can.

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Dr. B
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by Dr. B » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:58 pm

The1Kobra wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:46 pm
26/4 Bard/Blackguard build.
This is feat-starved, with lousy damage when you don't have divine might up, and really doesn't have any huge advantage over the 20/6/4 that makes it worth the sacrifice of feat slots and epic weapon spec. Either go 20/6/4 or, if you don't want to be a blackguard, 25/5 Bard/Fighter. See the essential cookie cutter build guide for the specifics

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One Two Three Five
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by One Two Three Five » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:20 am

You'll probably want to focus on CHA, but DEX is an important second stat so you can hit with your touch attacks. CON after that.
Nahnahnahnahnahnahnahnahnah.

Con-based, EDR 3. 30 or 27 warlock, sigh, three blackguard.
Dex only matters at low levels because touch attacks are ez-pz to hit with once you've got some BAB and a +whatever weapon in hand. 16 Cha max. Grab Abjuration focuses so you can bubble up against IGMS.
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:46 am

One Two Three Five wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:20 am
You'll probably want to focus on CHA, but DEX is an important second stat so you can hit with your touch attacks. CON after that.
Nahnahnahnahnahnahnahnahnah.

Con-based, EDR 3. 30 or 27 warlock, sigh, three blackguard.
Dex only matters at low levels because touch attacks are ez-pz to hit with once you've got some BAB and a +whatever weapon in hand. 16 Cha max. Grab Abjuration focuses so you can bubble up against IGMS.
Seconding 1235. Most feylocks treat Dex as a dump stat, and while you don't necessarily need to go THAT far, getting more than 12 Dex is generally a waste unless you're going for a specific high Dex mod armor. With 12 Dex + GSF Transmutation, Cat's Grace can buff you up to 18 Dex, which nets you max AC from a chain shirt.

GSF Enchantment/Transmutation/Abjuration are all great, blind fight is mandatory, extend spell is handy for haste, displacement, etc.

If you want to do the 27 warlock/3 BG route, 13 str, power attack and cleave are mandatory, while still spell & divine shield are handy.
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TheShadowdove
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by TheShadowdove » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:03 am

Drow cannot choose greater gifts can they? I assumed that all of the racial bonuses made it so you cannot for some reason.

I am liking the 20/4/6 bard. I was just curious as to whether or not there was enough bard in it?

30 warlock may be the best route for her. Simple and proven to work.

The1Kobra
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by The1Kobra » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:45 am

20 Bard is usually the good benchmark, since that's when you get good song bonuses and lasting inspiration. You can go higher, some builds might use 23. If you get 25 Bard you could in theory, buff your song's AC bonus to 6, however getting that requires a 75 Perform which is very hard to get. 20 Bard is enough, in most cases. (Albeit it is vulnerable to dispels)

TheShadowdove
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by TheShadowdove » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:28 am

To the major gift suggestions, looks like drow can only take one minor gift due to racials.

Which armor, weapon, and shields am I looking at? General gear enchants?

Honestly was expecting Dex bards to be standard, but Str looks more popular these days.

I also caught that dex doesn't matter as much for the warlock later on due to the ability to self buff and however spell attack rolls work.

Anyone care to do a revised starting stat array, skill breakdown, pre/post epic feat list, and class order for each?

Bluff minor for feylock, perform for bard?

Thanks again.

The1Kobra
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by The1Kobra » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:57 am

The main problem with dex based bards is that they have the damage output of a wet noodle, so it's generally not worth it. You'll get better AC on a STR bard anyways if you use divine shield as well. There really aren't many advantages to going dex based unless you want to have some kind of archer build, which generally doesn't synnergize well with bard.

For a feylock, if you want to go the CONlock route, here's what I'd recommend:

8/14/14/14/8/16 (That's with elf included)
8/14/14/16/8/18 (With Drow)
8/14/16/16/8/18 (With CON gift).

Put your level up points into CON, at least up to 21, which unlocks Epic Damage Reduction.

You don't want to completely ignore dex on a warlock either, because then high dodge AC targets can evade your blasts. I've actually seen this in action where my dex character consistently was able to evade an 8 DEX warlock's blasts even when the warlock had a high level.

Your DCs are going to be lower than the CHAlock for this build.

For epic feats, get Epic Damage reduction 1-3. Just remember that the bonus bard feats have a narrow range of feats they can be used for. Great Charisma is probably the best, but you could grab an epic skill focus. Discipline would help for certain.

TheShadowdove
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by TheShadowdove » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:15 pm

Since I'm a bard, do I take all of my fighter (except 1) and bg levels are epic for bab?

The1Kobra
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by The1Kobra » Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:04 pm

You want to take 4 full BAB levels pre-epic, since that will give you the fourth attack. Due to the build's feat tightness as well, you'll need to take some fighter pre-epic in order to properly fit everything.

I recommend going 12/4/4 Bard/Fighter/BG pre-epic, just be sure to get the third and fourth BG levels on a feat level (12, 15, 18, etc), so that you can get both divine might and divine shield.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:41 pm

The1Kobra wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:57 am
For a feylock, if you want to go the CONlock route, here's what I'd recommend:

8/14/14/14/8/16 (That's with elf included)
8/14/14/16/8/18 (With Drow)
8/14/16/16/8/18 (With CON gift).

Put your level up points into CON, at least up to 21, which unlocks Epic Damage Reduction.

You don't want to completely ignore dex on a warlock either, because then high dodge AC targets can evade your blasts. I've actually seen this in action where my dex character consistently was able to evade an 8 DEX warlock's blasts even when the warlock had a high level.

Your DCs are going to be lower than the CHAlock for this build.

For epic feats, get Epic Damage reduction 1-3. Just remember that the bonus bard feats have a narrow range of feats they can be used for. Great Charisma is probably the best, but you could grab an epic skill focus. Discipline would help for certain.
Remember, now that Con is a major gift, drow can't take any of the stat gifts, so those starting stats need some tweaking.

Before Drow Subrace: ST 10/DX 12/CN 16/IN 12/WS 8/CH 14
After Drow Subrace: ST 10/DX 12/CN 16/IN 14/WS 8/CH 16
At level 20: ST 10/DX 12/CN 21/IN 14/WS 8/CH 16

Warlock DCs are never really going to be incredible, but with GSF, Eagle's and Con/Cha gear you can hit 28 Cha and have DCs in the high 20s. Combo that with a mind fog, and your effective DCs will be ~30.

AB won't really be a concern - a +4 weapon and Dex buffed to 18 (remember that GSF Transmutation adds +1 to the zoo spells, so Cat's Grace gives up to 6 Dex) nets you a ranged touch attack of 28, or 30 with bard song buff. Against a Dex-based opponent, if you ARE having trouble hitting, remember that you can target the floor to just cast the spell with no blast damage. Use this to land a mind fog and a disable - slow or confusion, most likely. That'll flat-foot them, and while they'll likely keep their Dex AC, they'll lose ~10 AC from tumble and dodge, making them easy pickings. With 20% physical resist and 9/- DR, Dex-based characters aren't going to do a ton of damage to you, so you've got time to land these spells.

I would absolutely recommend getting ESF Discipline.
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TheShadowdove
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by TheShadowdove » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:08 pm

Is this about right for the bard?

20bard 6 fighter 4 blackguard

Drow

Str 16
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 14 (+2 racial-16)
Wis 8
Cha 14(+2 racial-16)

257 skill points

Discipline 33
Perform 33
Spellcraft 33
Concentration 33
Heal 33
Tumble 30
Umd 12
50 points remaining
(Search, spot, bluff, taunt, etc. Are good options for remaining points)

Bard 1-lvl1-blindfight
Bard 2-lvl2-
Bard 3-lvl3-curse song
Bard 4-lvl4-
Fighter 1-lvl5-weapon focus
Fighter 2-lvl6-weapon specialization, power attack
Fighter 3-lvl7-
Fighter 4-lvl8-cleave
Bard 5-lvl9-still spell
Blackguard 1-lvl10-
Blackguard 2-lvl11-
Blackguard 3-lvl12-divine might
Bard 6-lvl13-
Bard 7-lvl14-
Blackguard 4-lvl15-divine shield
Bard 8-lvl16-
Bard 9-lvl17-
Bard 10-lvl18-imp critical
Bard 11-lvl19-
Bard 12-lvl20-
Bard 13-lvl21-lasting inspiration
Fighter 5-lvl22-
Bard 14-lvl23-
Fighter 6-lvl24-epic weapon focus, epic weapon specialization
Bard 15-lvl25-
Bard 16-lvl26-
Bard 17-lvl27-armor skin
Bard 18-lvl28-
Bard 19-lvl29-
Bard 20-lvl30-great strength I

Lurch
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by Lurch » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:15 pm

You can't take lasting inspiration until 20th bard level, or level 30 in your case.

TheShadowdove
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by TheShadowdove » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:21 pm

Durn it. So two months or so of playing to feel the full glory of the bard levels.... But bard @30 is necessary for max skills...

i revised it to have lasting inspiration at 30.

Bard 1-lvl1-blindfight
Bard 2-lvl2-
Bard 3-lvl3-curse song
Bard 4-lvl4-
Fighter 1-lvl5-weapon focus
Fighter 2-lvl6-weapon specialization, power attack
Fighter 3-lvl7-
Fighter 4-lvl8- cleave
Bard 5-lvl9-still spell
Blackguard 1-lvl10-
Blackguard 2-lvl11-
Blackguard 3-lvl12-divine might
Bard 6-lvl13-
Bard 7-lvl14-
Blackguard 4-lvl15-divine shield
Bard 8-lvl16-
Bard 9-lvl17-
Bard 10-lvl18-imp critical
Bard 11-lvl19-
Bard 12-lvl20-
Bard 13-lvl21-armor skin
Fighter 5-lvl22-
Bard 14-lvl23-
Fighter 6-lvl24-epic weapon focus, epic weapon specialization
Bard 15-lvl25-
Bard 16-lvl26-
Bard 17-lvl27- great strength I
Bard 18-lvl28-
Bard 19-lvl29-
Bard 20-lvl30-Lasting Inspiration
Last edited by TheShadowdove on Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheShadowdove
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by TheShadowdove » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:40 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:41 pm
The1Kobra wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:57 am
For a feylock, if you want to go the CONlock route, here's what I'd recommend:

8/14/14/14/8/16 (That's with elf included)
8/14/14/16/8/18 (With Drow)
8/14/16/16/8/18 (With CON gift).

Put your level up points into CON, at least up to 21, which unlocks Epic Damage Reduction.

You don't want to completely ignore dex on a warlock either, because then high dodge AC targets can evade your blasts. I've actually seen this in action where my dex character consistently was able to evade an 8 DEX warlock's blasts even when the warlock had a high level.

Your DCs are going to be lower than the CHAlock for this build.

For epic feats, get Epic Damage reduction 1-3. Just remember that the bonus bard feats have a narrow range of feats they can be used for. Great Charisma is probably the best, but you could grab an epic skill focus. Discipline would help for certain.
Remember, now that Con is a major gift, drow can't take any of the stat gifts, so those starting stats need some tweaking.

Before Drow Subrace: ST 10/DX 12/CN 16/IN 12/WS 8/CH 14
After Drow Subrace: ST 10/DX 12/CN 16/IN 14/WS 8/CH 16
At level 20: ST 10/DX 12/CN 21/IN 14/WS 8/CH 16

Warlock DCs are never really going to be incredible, but with GSF, Eagle's and Con/Cha gear you can hit 28 Cha and have DCs in the high 20s. Combo that with a mind fog, and your effective DCs will be ~30.

AB won't really be a concern - a +4 weapon and Dex buffed to 18 (remember that GSF Transmutation adds +1 to the zoo spells, so Cat's Grace gives up to 6 Dex) nets you a ranged touch attack of 28, or 30 with bard song buff. Against a Dex-based opponent, if you ARE having trouble hitting, remember that you can target the floor to just cast the spell with no blast damage. Use this to land a mind fog and a disable - slow or confusion, most likely. That'll flat-foot them, and while they'll likely keep their Dex AC, they'll lose ~10 AC from tumble and dodge, making them easy pickings. With 20% physical resist and 9/- DR, Dex-based characters aren't going to do a ton of damage to you, so you've got time to land these spells.

I would absolutely recommend getting ESF Discipline.
Is there a generic feylock build written up that I can apply these stats to?

TheShadowdove
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by TheShadowdove » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:09 pm

Is the build hurting badly from lack of improved expertise?

The1Kobra
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by The1Kobra » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:56 pm

For the feylock, casting drops expertise mode, so it wouldn't help unless you wanted to just survive while hosing your offense.

As for the bard, between the song and divine shield, you should have good AC regardless. Expertise is nice because it doesn't run out, but you should be able to make due without. It can be a pain if your buffs run out though and you can't switch it on in short order.

It may also be a good idea to put 2 level up points into CHA, a base 18 would give you +10 Damage/AC from your divine shield and a good number of rounds to use it.

Also note, you have to take weapon specialization at Fighter 4, since it has a prereq of 4 fighter levels.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:14 pm

Yeah, improved expertise is pretty much useless for a feylock. You defense consists more of a large HP pool, physical DR, 50% concealment, and what is effectively perma-haste.

There is no cookie-cutter feylock posted, for whatever reason, but it's pretty similar to the cookie-cutter fiendlock. You'll drop Toughness or ESF Bluff (since you're a drow), take SF/GSF Enchantment instead of Conjuration and Extend Spell instead of Quicken Spell. Aside from that, it's identical.
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TheShadowdove
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by TheShadowdove » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:32 pm

Alright. Drow Bard stats with racials.

15, 10, 14, 8, 16,16
16,10,14,8,14,16
10,17,14,8,14,16

You folks have made it clear that you prefer the str bard.

The differences primarily being...

You don't even get substantially more ac as Dex bard and it costs you another feat for finesse...

What's the ac gap with stats and armor? 17(24)Dex,+12 cap, +3 cloth armor. So 16.

Then 8full plate, 1 Dex mod, +3 armor.
12.

4 more ac and +1 ab or 6 more damage per hit is what it comes down to.

Other str pros being more discipline, carry weight, and more ac when caught flat-footed.

Any more thoughts or contradicting opinions on the traditional Dex Cha bard vs Currently meta Str bard?

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One Two Three Five
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by One Two Three Five » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:17 pm

Strength bards also deal more damage.
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Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.

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Hunter548
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by Hunter548 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:03 pm

How are dex bards "traditional"? They've never been good.

It's worth noting that the main advantage of dex - higher AC - is kind of a point of diminishing returns. STR bards, even if they don't get divine shield, can still break 60 AC easily.
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TheShadowdove
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Re: Players seeking Drow Bard & Feylock builds

Post by TheShadowdove » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:11 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:03 pm
How are dex bards "traditional"? They've never been good.

It's worth noting that the main advantage of dex - higher AC - is kind of a point of diminishing returns. STR bards, even if they don't get divine shield, can still break 60 AC easily.
I remember them being extremely popular off and on over the span of time since the game was released.

When 1SD was a option they used to be ideal sneak hunters/counter to hipsers in PvP as well. It was kind of a big deal back then.

There used to be some gimmicky epic dodge mixtures too.

Back when there were a lot of lvl 30 / 40 servers that were almost always full Dex bards were very viable considering gear differed from server to server.

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