Shadow dancer shadow mages

[StrykerMontgomery]

So does the plus caster levels allow shadow mages to get higher spells similar to pale master? Was wondering if one coul epic shadow after polymorphing.

[TimeAdept]

It doesn't function like that. SD on Shadow Mage is a trap - don't do it.

[Biolab00]

I know that Shadowdancer add +1 caster level per level for Shadow Mage.
Does the +1 caster level applies to both Dispel resist DC and Spell Penetration DC?

[TimeAdept]

Yes, it does, but

SD on Shadow Mage is a trap - don't do it.

[Biolab00]

Yea i do understand that...
But the full caster level in dispel resist and spell penetration makes it tempting.
God knows how annoying dispels are.
And SD do give some good skills to invest... Well no discipline skill though... But any legit warrior will still knock us down even if we max out the discipline.

[The1Kobra]

For a shadow mage, I figure you either ought to simply splash SD (like 26/4 wizard or sorc/SD), or you're making a build where you essentially forego the casting and just focus on SD.

Just remember that wizard/sorc don't get hide or MS as class skills, while SD does. SD also gets tumble. That alone I think makes the dip worth it, since otherwise the HIPS they get is kind of wasted.

[TimeAdept]

Stop recommending pople take SD with shadow mage.

But the full caster level in dispel resist and spell penetration makes it tempting.

You know what else gets full caster level?

Taking more levels in Wizard.

26 wizard (Shadowmage) / 4 bard. Bard gets all hide skills, tumble, discipline, UMD.

There's a reason the builds are considered the gold standard.

[Wytchee]

Shadow mages get HiPS at caster level 20 specifically to discourage people from taking Shadowdancer levels because the class is broken in its current incarnation. *Do not take Shadowdancer levels on a shadow mage.* It has absolutely zero synergy.

Supposedly shadow mages are being worked on but who knows when that will be.

[Biolab00]

Well
I had also considered bard but SD gives full caster level and also tumbler, hide and ms required with Spot skill for RP purposes.

The most important for me is caster level though...
Because a dispel roll is cap at 26
1-20droll + 26 = Max at 46

With full caster level at 32 (arcane def abjuration)
46 Vs 12 + 32 = 44dc
Means they can only roll 19 or 20 to dispel me

But if 4bard level, the simply need to roll above 14 to dispel me and that's really risky and above 12 if no Arcane def abjuration...

Also, I do not need to take Spell Penetration and greater spell penetration feat too... since 4 caster level gives +4 penetration as well.

Well, full wizard class for full caster level is totally a bad build without tumble, hide, ms and spot skill etc.

It's a tough choice for me...

[Wytchee]

There is no reason to take spell penetration feats if you have more than 26 caster levels. You rarely encounter anything with more than 32 SR, and when you do, a well-placed Mords will lower it by 10.

If you are worried about being dispelled, 27/3 is still pretty resistant to being dispelled. There's no reason to go 26/4 unless you're planning on pushing your level 20 wizard feat into epics by taking three bard levels pre-20.

Bard grants you discipline, which is a must-have in PvP, and judging by your other thread your character is a necromancer, so expect to PvP a lot. Bard also has hide, move silently and tumble. Bard also has listen, which in some situations is better than spot for the purposes of detecting sneaky characters. A wand of Amplify is +20 to listen for 5 whole minutes.

[KrishnaGirl]

So does the plus caster levels allow shadow mages to get higher spells similar to pale master? Was wondering if one coul epic shadow after polymorphing.

RIght so You can summon shadow after polymorph self at which point shadow takes your polymorphs str dex con. Untested with shapeshift. The issue is shadow hd is based off sd lvls so your shadow hd is only 3 if you're only 3 sd. This means your shadow ends up doing jack for dmg because of low bab. It is super tanky if you are high con though.

You can get decent base stats by Bulls + Cats + Endurance then polymorph then summon then un polymorph then re Bulls + Cats + Endurance on the shadow. This isn't enough though because base attack is bad so you get like no dmg. You could theoretically get 51 str shadow red drag assuming it works with shapeshift as well. with double maximized bulls str.

How the double stat buffs work is you shadow takes your final str dex con as its base. This allows you to stat buff them again once they are summoned.

Also if you summon shadow after polymorph into umber hulk the shadow will appear as a umber hulk.

Cookie cutter wiz is better but here are some Sd dip options off the top of my head:
26 sm 4 sd - Good: 30 cls evasion Bad: no disc, amplify, umd, and lose a epic bonus feat
23 sm 7sd - Good: 30 cls, evasion, slippery mind, Bad: no disc, amplify, umd, and lose 2 epic bonus feats
23 sm 4sd 3 bard - Good: 27 cls , evasion , disc, Bad lose 2 epic feats.

Clever leveling can change the lvl 20 wiz bonus feat into an epic feat reducing one epic wiz feat loss be a reg wiz bonus feat loss in certain cases.

[ReverentBlade]

There's no real good reason to go SD on a shadow mage. Like has been mentioned, its a noob trap.

[Alox]

You give up bigby spells and IGMS for +2 DC on spells everyone can easily buf against. Going shadow mage is not that great a choice already.

And as a wizard the only really mechanical viable choice is taking 3-4 levels of bard or ranger for your discipline dip. Bard for UMD, ranger for extra feat.

[StrykerMontgomery]

You give up bigby spells and IGMS for +2 DC on spells everyone can easily buf against. Going shadow mage is not that great a choice already.

And as a wizard the only really mechanical viable choice is taking 3-4 levels of bard or ranger for your discipline dip. Bard for UMD, ranger for extra feat.

And Hips, which I think is extremely much more "immediate" functional than casting a spell. (It can be done immediately after casting spell rather than duration of casting another spell and see invisibility does not block it).

[KrishnaGirl]

You give up bigby spells and IGMS for +2 DC on spells everyone can easily buf against. Going shadow mage is not that great a choice already.

And as a wizard the only really mechanical viable choice is taking 3-4 levels of bard or ranger for your discipline dip. Bard for UMD, ranger for extra feat.

And unfortunately ranger is locked out to sm cause you lose shar if you go ranger.

I've put my sm on hold until the path is fixed which is a shame cause omg I love playing Olivia.

[Jagel]

You do not loose Shar by going ranger AFAIK. By not having a Nature deity you loose acces to nature based spells, but for a ranger dip that is hardly relevant

[Kenji]

You give up bigby spells and IGMS for +2 DC on spells everyone can easily buf against. Going shadow mage is not that great a choice already.

And as a wizard the only really mechanical viable choice is taking 3-4 levels of bard or ranger for your discipline dip. Bard for UMD, ranger for extra feat.

And unfortunately ranger is locked out to sm cause you lose shar if you go ranger.

I've put my sm on hold until the path is fixed which is a shame cause omg I love playing Olivia.

Ranger is a divine class, Shar's requirements are LE, NE, or CE iirc, thus the Shadowmage into Ranger dip will have to be of the 3 alignment for the PC not to lose Shar upon Ranger selection!

[Jagel]

Ranger doesn’t have an alignment restriction though, so if your SM can worship Shar, taking a lvl in ranger won’t change it

[Baron Saturday]

Here's the relevant line from the wiki:

A ranger must select a nature deity (as a druid) or a deity that supports their alignment (as cleric). When selecting a non-nature deity, Rangers lose access to spells that a cleric cannot cast. These include, but are not limited to, camouflage line, polymorph self, blade thirst, one with the land, and the magic fang line.

[Kenji]

All of my rangers are required to be within the acceptable alignment range as the deities they choose.

At the same time, none of them have picked Nature deity and their "nature" spells still work (For archers anyways).

TBH, this is how it should be as Rangers aren't Druids after all. They are serial killers who focus on studying the anatomy of their chosen enemies rather than serving a deity's interest in regards to nature.

The nature deity requirement for nature spellcasting thing might not be working as of now, but it's a step-up for both RP and mechanical interpretation of the class.

[Opustus]

Kenji, the lore and restrictions on ranger spellcasting are more concerned with the source and type of their magic, which is, according to a rather simple and very general reading of canon lore, divine magic, which always comes from a deity or a planar power. If rangers could cast spells without the patronage of a nature deity, the lore of how they get their spells in the first place would have to be renegotiated, which I think is not something that Arelith would be keen to do. And nor should we; remaking well-established rules is just messy and unnecessary and takes some time to learn and spread to become the new norm. I think that removing the nature deity restriction would make the ranger class just an outdoorsy hunter class that is granted nature-themed spells for some strange reason by deities who have nothing to do with nature.

Or maybe it would just open the option of rangers being roleplayed as something else as you suggest and the classic understanding of the class would prevail for the most part, not changing the theme significantly. Dunno?

[Jagel]

Some rangers are simply serial killers who focus on studying the anatomy of their chosen enemies more than serving a deity's interest in regards to nature.

Brought out a few nuances ^^

It is perfectly fine to play vengeful serial killer rangers but there is nothing wrong with playing them ad champions of a certain deity’s tenents in regards to nature or a myriad of other things

[Kenji]

Regarding that, I'll start a new thread to prevent derailing this particular one.

What's important here is that Rangers have alignment restrictions should folks decide to dip into Ranger class and wish to keep their current deity.

[StrykerMontgomery]

Is the increased caster level scripted in a way that they still gain new spell slots with enough shadow dancer levels?

[monkeywithstick]

Is the increased caster level scripted in a way that they still gain new spell slots with enough shadow dancer levels?

No