Decent Pure Bard?

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Pakito
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Decent Pure Bard?

Post by Pakito » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:20 am

Hello forum!

Is it possible to play a pure bard and not suck completely? I'm looking for a build for a pure bard, support type, but also one that can sustain itself at least somewhat.

PinataPlethora
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Re: Decent Pure Bard?

Post by PinataPlethora » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:46 am

AFAIK, you can't get enough Perform to benefit from level 30 Bard Song, so you're better off with a 4-5 level dip of a 1AB/lvl class.

Wrips
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Re: Decent Pure Bard?

Post by Wrips » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:48 am

Go the 25 Bard/5 Fighter build.

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Re: Decent Pure Bard?

Post by Shadowy Reality » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:57 am

You can play it like a Warlock. Go Con and saves, take armour, shield and instead of blasts throw spells, bard songs and curses.

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Jack Oat
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Re: Decent Pure Bard?

Post by Jack Oat » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:58 am

Pakito wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:20 am
Is it possible to play a pure bard and not suck completely?
No.
Pakito wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:20 am
I'm looking for a build for a pure bard, support type, but also one that can sustain itself at least somewhat.
20 Bard/6 Fighter/4 Paladin or BG or 20 Bard/5 Fighter/5 Harper Paragon. Pretty sure you can find all of those in the build compendium.
Wrips wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:48 am
Go the 25 Bard/5 Fighter build.
I guess this works too, but I don't like it. Too little damage IMO.
Shadowy Reality wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:57 am
You can play it like a Warlock. Go Con and saves, take armour, shield and instead of blasts throw spells, bard songs and curses.
This used to be a thing, then they nerfed it cus it was dumb, with people tanking Abazuur with Wounding Whispers and heal kits. Now it isn't nearly as viable.

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Hunter548
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Re: Decent Pure Bard?

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:07 am

If you want to go pure support type, do 27 bard/3 paladin or BG, con based with EDR. Otherwise if you're looking for something less completely-party-reliant, go 20 bard 6 fighter 4 paladin or BG.
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msterswrdsmn
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Re: Decent Pure Bard?

Post by msterswrdsmn » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:18 pm

I can't think of a way you'd really be able to make a pure bard and really excel at anything other than support. Granted, you'll be able to give some fantastic support, but thats about it (long bard/curse songs, mass haste, imp invis).

The only niche way I can really see it working as a bard and not a warlock is if you had high con, all epic DR feats, stacked on top of ethereal visage and wounding whispers, gradually chipping away at their health as they hit you. Which, admittedly, would be hilarious, watching a bard singing and dancing, taking all 2 damage per hit while their enemies bash themselves to death.

StrykerMontgomery
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Re: Decent Pure Bard?

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:33 am

I highly recommend looking at harperscout archetypes. I know its not pure. But it it almost will be. If im correct there are some kind of quarts you can make to enhance your perform skill to make use of the lvl 30. This would have to be confirmed.
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The1Kobra
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Re: Decent Pure Bard?

Post by The1Kobra » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:33 am

Truth be told, even if you want a "support" bard, you'd probably be better off with 26/4 Bard/Paladin or Blackguard, the extra attack AND divine shield/might is a huge bonus that shouldn't be ignored (and kind of leaves neutral bards sad). Still, if you really want to go for the pure bard goodies (L30 song), here's what you can do:

Human

Stats:
16/10/14/14/8/14
18/10/14/14/8/16

Because there aren't a lot of good 0 ASF armors out there, you're going to want still spell. You'll probably be hurting for AC. Spellthief's armor might help. If you plan on using that, I might recommend putting 2 STR points into 4 DEX.

Pre-epic(8): Curse Song, Still Spell OR Extend Spell, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Or Martial, if you want a martial weapon), Weapon Focus, IMPR Crit, Blind Fight, Expertise, IMPR Expertise OR Brew Potion
Epic(4+3B): Armor Skin, Lasting Inspiration, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Skill Focus Perform, Epic Prowess, Epic Will OR Epic Skill Focus Listen, Epic Great Strength 1

Still spell will give you an easier time picking your armor selection, though if you want to use spellthief's armor you might be able to skip it. Alternatively you can swap out extend spell if you want to grab IMPR expertise, which will help you survive. Brew Potion might seem like an odd pick, but bard potion crafters are the only ones able to make war cry potions, giving you a niche merchant role if you want to go that way.

Still, I'd generally say one of the 26/4 combos is better. Even with ESF Perform (and SF Perform, if you get it), it's hard to get the 100 perform for the L30 song. You could in theory get it, 33+9+10+50 = 102, but you'd need at least +48 perform from your gear, and I don't think you can manage that on Arelith.

Frankly
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Re: Decent Pure Bard?

Post by Frankly » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:05 pm

The only bonuses you get for bard past 30 perform are tenporary hp and skills, save for 1 point of ac at 25 that requires 75 perform. Don't bother going past 30 for mechanical reasons but if its for rp push it up I guess

Frankly
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Re: Decent Pure Bard?

Post by Frankly » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:14 pm

Also don't take still spell, you will waste high level slots for no reason.

Bard AC calculates as follows
BASE: 10
SPELLTHEIF: 6
DEX: 4
ADAMANTINE TOWER: 6
DODGE BOOTS: 1
TUMBLE: 6
ARMOR SKIN: 2
MAGE ARMOR: 1
BARKSKIN WAND: 4
SHIELD POTION: 4
BARD SONG: 5
HASTE: 4
Curse Song: -2 opponent AB, effectively +2 ab
Total: 53 (55)

If you take expertise this goes up to 58 (60) or 63 (65) in IE.

Just take off your tower shield to cast and your ac is fine. Still spell is litteraly the biggest waste of a feat for bards.

The1Kobra
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Re: Decent Pure Bard?

Post by The1Kobra » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:12 am

You actually get a 7th point of AC at bard song 30, however it requires 100 perform to get there, which is nearly impossible to get. You definitely need ESF Perform, but even with that it will be difficult to get.

Frankly
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Re: Decent Pure Bard?

Post by Frankly » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:26 pm

Even gearing you can probably at best get 70 perform. It's not only not viable but its a waste of enchantments that could go int str, con, or universal saves.

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Re: Decent Pure Bard?

Post by goblinhero » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:25 pm

It is possible to get 100 perform, but you have to sacrifice a lot for it - I have one that will reach it at 30th.

It is excellent support - but needs a guard from someone to take the heat of her.

Works best in a party of 3-6 with at least one meleer (preferably two). Just for reference, this is the build:
Human, stats 14 12 14 12 8 16 (18) (30)
Gifts: Charisma + stardom (1 free slot)
Feats: Lingering song, extra music, curse song, SF:Perform, Extend spell (3 free pre-epic)
Epic feats: Lasting song, Great Cha V, ESF: Perform

Perform: 33 ranks + 16 (cha 42 buffed) + 6 (stardom) + 13 (focuses) + 32 (items)

Items, needed: Singers gloves (+5), Blue suede shoes (+5), Golden crown (+3), Ruby amulet (+5), remaining 7 items enchanted with +2 perform

Frankly
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Re: Decent Pure Bard?

Post by Frankly » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:45 pm

All that cha could be better spent on having decent str /dex/con. If you want ultimate support play a bard 20/ knight 10 and you'll get a huge array of buffs without sacrificing viability 1 ac from bard song is nothing compared to the massive number of infinitely usable cooldown buffs from knight.

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Re: Decent Pure Bard?

Post by goblinhero » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:51 am

Well, it all depends on what you want, naturally.

Problem with the knight build is that the most important things (-guard + ward) is not that usable with a bard since you are too squishy with low hp.

And difference between 20 and 30 bard is 2 dodge ac and a +11 boost to all skills (including disc, taunt, search, pick locks etc.), not to mention that curse song in practice doubles the effects of bardsong. And your spells will have 50% increase in duration and will be harder to dispel.

To each their own, but I really like playing a pure bard and not so much the PDK version of it.

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Peppermint
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Re: Decent Pure Bard?

Post by Peppermint » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:08 am

A couple things of note:

1. Still Spell is crucial on a bard. Here's the thing: bards are not pure casters. You do not need to apply other metamagic to your spells, and for the most part, you won't need all your high level spell slots. So Still Spell does not hinder you nearly as much as it would another caster.

In exchange, you can swap out your Spellthief's Armor for Adamantine Full Plate. This nets +2 AC and disavows you of the need to gear for dexterity. For bonus points, not having to shelve your shield makes it much easier to cast in the heat of battle.

2. Contrary to what some might say, bards are natural tanks. Not only do they synergize very well with heavy armor, but they also pick up Bard Song (i.e. a free +5 AC!), Curse Song (-2 to enemy AB), and can easily spring for Divine Shield (i.e. yet another +9-10 AC). While their hit points are only so-so, they make up for this by being very difficult to hit.

Most purely support-based variants (e.g. pure bard or bard/pdk) actually go con-based, which makes them even more difficult to kill than their str-based counterparts. That said, I'm personally not fond of tank 'support' bards; once your bard song has been put on the field, you've already done your primary job, and it doesn't much matter if you live or die. Better to dish out more damage while you're around. YMMV on that one, though.

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