24th level rogue grenades worth it..?

[Tourmaline]

Do y'all think 24 rogue levels solely to access those top tier grenades is worth it, if the character would otherwise lean towards a 6 monk/5 ftr/ 19 rogue build?

[Opustus]

More movement speed and the monk extra attacks are such a massive boon to a sneak attacking character that I'd claim, theoretically, that the Monk/Rogue is still the best possible version of Rogue. I can't comment about the grenades; it's possible they're utterly game changing.

[StrykerMontgomery]

I been told to stop advising so feel free to ignore everything I say.

I would honestly pick based off if you want to be a traditional rogue or someone who punches.

According to the arelith wiki, the 6 monks lvls will only give you 10% speed since the first increase doesnt stack with rogue lvls stealth speed boost.

You lose DC to nades (which apparently are powerful) and other lvl 24 boosts. Also your bab will be slightly lower but your saves will be higher. 24 rogue also has an impressively higher max dex for armor. (Thst might not matter though)


Monk will gain inproved knockdown. But lose out on an epic bonus feat

Monk will have more attacks but less sneak damage (the attacks are prob more worth it but consider everything else)

[Jack Oat]

I been told to stop advising so feel free to ignore everything I say.

At least you prefaced it with this. Now let me highlight why you've been asked to stop advising, because it's a learning opportunity so that one day you won't be asked to stop advising.

I would honestly pick based off if you want to be a traditional rogue or someone who punches.

Rogue 19/Monk 6/Fighter 5 uses kamas or a quarterstaff for higher APR than the traditional 24/6 build. That's almost the entire purpose behind taking Monk.

According to the arelith wiki, the 6 monks lvls will only give you 10% speed since the first increase doesnt stack with rogue lvls stealth speed boost.

This is correct.

You lose DC to nades (which apparently are powerful) and other lvl 24 boosts.

This is also correct.

Also your bab will be slightly lower but your saves will be higher.

Your BAB ends up the exact same: 21. 12 Rogue/4 Monk/4 Fighter pre-epic is the same BAB as 16 Rogue/4 Fighter pre-epic. Your saves will, however, be slightly higher. I think it's something like 2-3 points of Fortitude difference, but the big difference is that Will save gets boosted from having and buffing Wisdom.

24 rogue also has an impressively higher max dex for armor. (Thst might not matter though)

You would be correct, it doesn't matter.
A Rogue with 24 levels can use a max of +5 Studded Leathers (3/4 armor) for a max AC from armor of 21 (3 DEX base, 4 armor base, 5 armor bonus, 1 Fighter bonus, 8 from Rogue "Lightly Armored" bonus) and another +5 from a large shield if they opt not to dual-wield in favor of AC, putting their max at about 26.
A Monk gets 14 DEX bonus, 3 from Armor on a tunic, 1 from Fighter bonus, then (in that build's case) 7 from Wisdom modifier when fully buffed, and lastly +1 AC from Monk 5, which is a cap of 26 when unarmored. This is while retaining full APR.
Ultimately the Monk can push out the same AC while retaining about 3 more attacks per round than the Rogue 24/Fighter 6 build.

Monk will gain inproved knockdown. But lose out on an epic bonus feat

Both builds get Improved Knockdown when built right. They both get the same number of Epic feats, and ultimately really get the same number of feats total, sort of.
Assuming both are Human:
24/6 Rogue/Fighter gets 8 pre-epic feats, 5 Rogue bonus feats (3 pre-epic, 2 epic; can also be made into 2 pre-epic, 3 epic, but serves no benefit since they would be used the same to attain Epic Dodge pre-reqs), 4 Fighter bonus feats (3 pre-epic, 1 epic), and 4 epic feats. Total of 21 feats (8 pre-epic, 4 epic, 5 Rogue bonus, 4 Fighter bonus).
19/6/5 Rogue/Monk/Fighter gets 8 pre-epic feats, 4 Rogue bonus feats (1 pre-epic, 3 epic), 3 Fighter bonus feats (all pre-epic), and 4 Epic feats. Total of 19 feats (8 pre-epic, 4 epic, 4 Rogue bonus, 3 Fighter bonus).

"So Jack, why do you say they ultimately get the same number of feats total if one gets 21 and the other gets 19?" I hear you cry.
The answer is Knockdown and Improved Knockdown, which (as you pointed out) Monk gets for free. That means basically 21 feats for the second build. Both get the same number of pre-epic feats (not including Knockdown/IKD in the calculation) at 12, both get the same number of Epic feats at 7.

Monk will have more attacks but less sneak damage (the attacks are prob more worth it but consider everything else)

You have hit the nail on the head. The extra 2-3 attacks per round at 10d6 Sneak Attack damage plus whatever other base damages it does are better than the regular 6/7 attacks with 12d6, only 2d6 higher per attack.

[brunothenumerouno]

I haven't tested it (yet) but I think 24 rogue 6 fighter will be the best build for a rogue once the dust settles. The only thing that worries me is a story I just heard yesterday of a rogue using the best grenade and getting effected by it by himself. Even with that concern (which in my opinion is a design flaw) a round of stun is way better then kd in a world where even wizards and clerics have super high levels of discipline, and you can get the dc of the new grenades in the 38/39 range with the 24/6, which is really good considering its a reflex save.

[Opustus]

It's pretty easy to crunch the numbers for both builds, AB, AC, and average damage, but I think people tend to underestimate the significance of movement speed bonus, even a slight one, for sneaks. It makes a world of difference being able to reliably get around that corner to restealth in combat, without always having to waste haste/expeditious retreat for it, or outrunning other characters in PvP.

[brunothenumerouno]

I take your point, but is "wasting a potion" ever a real concern on Arelith?

[StrykerMontgomery]

I

I haven't tested it (yet) but I think 24 rogue 6 fighter will be the best build for a rogue once the dust settles. The only thing that worries me is a story I just heard yesterday of a rogue using the best grenade and getting effected by it by himself. Even with that concern (which in my opinion is a design flaw) a round of stun is way better then kd in a world where even wizards and clerics have super high levels of discipline, and you can get the dc of the new grenades in the 38/39 range with the 24/6, which is really good considering its a reflex save.

Which is why I was inquiring if they wanted more of a martial artist feel to begin with. Because i am leaninig heavily in the direction that both have meaning.

[Dirac]

You have hit the nail on the head. The extra 2-3 attacks per round at 10d6 Sneak Attack damage plus whatever other base damages it does are better than the regular 6/7 attacks with 12d6, only 2d6 higher per attack.

Yeah, dude 2 more attacks at 10d6 is way better than regular attacks at 12d6, so I agree that the Rogue/Monk/Fighter build is by far superior!

[msterswrdsmn]

Its not just more attacks you're getting; your AB degrades at 3 per attack, rather than the usual 5 per attack, so your 6 unarmed or kama attacks will be slightly more accurate than 6 dual wielding attacks.

As for the original question; I wouldn't take 24 rogue levels for the sole purpose of using rogue grenades, no. If making big-booms is your thing, there are better options.

[StrykerMontgomery]

I was more thinking things like stunning paralyzing with higher dcs. But ibdint knownwhat fort/reflex saves weapon masters are walking around with

[BegoneThoth]

WM's have ok reflex generally.

Clerics, wizards for sure have awful reflex. Barbarians generally have bad reflex too but there are a lot of barbarian builds and some can get ok reflex.

And while these builds can gear for reflex, gearing for Fort is far more important, so it's less likely.

[BegoneThoth]

Also am I wrong here or is the monk build 5 ab behind the 24 Rogue?

Rogue uses a plus six dale sword, and isn't in flurry. Monk has to use a plus three masterly kama, and in flurry loses two more ab.

Not to mention not being able to beat DR naturally.

Could be wrong though but that is a huge problem for a 16 bab build that dual wields.

[Jack Oat]

Also am I wrong here or is the monk build 5 ab behind the 24 Rogue?

Rogue uses a plus six dale sword, and isn't in flurry. Monk has to use a plus three masterly kama, and in flurry loses two more ab.

Not to mention not being able to beat DR naturally.

Could be wrong though but that is a huge problem for a 16 bab build that dual wields.

That's assuming you go for the 50 UMD requirement and do shortswords instead of kukris, but even without that's a 4 AB difference. But Quarterstaff is also an option for the monk build that mitigates that AB loss entirely for a regular weapon, and almost entirely for a DW Dale Sword build with just 1 AB difference. Still can't beat DR though.

[BegoneThoth]

But you also can't flurry with a q.staff so you lose the big key thing; extra attacks.

Again, unless I'm wrong.

Edit; Also how is it 4 ab? It's a plus 6 weapon vs a plus 3 weapon, and flurry is -2 again. So +6 vs +1.

[Jack Oat]

But you also can't flurry with a q.staff so you lose the big key thing; extra attacks.

While this is a big thing, it isn't the only thing. 2 extra attacks from qstaff, plus the closer AB on APR from Monk UBAB progression, are still better than the extra 2d6 Sneaks. And it mitigates the AB loss some.

Another big reason I recommend Monk is because it retains its high AC even when dual-wielding, unlike the standard 24/6 which sacrificed AC from having a shield whenever it dual-wields.

Also you get to zoom around some.

Edit; Also how is it 4 ab? It's a plus 6 weapon vs a plus 3 weapon, and flurry is -2 again. So +6 vs +1.

Correct, if you use flurry. Even without, like qstaff, it's a 4 AB loss. If I was worried about target AC on the top in the first place I wouldn't use flurry.

[StrykerMontgomery]

Regarding max dex modifier that rogues provide, jack oat's example should have looked at padded armor options, in particular the armor of immolation would be an example. 24 rogue would make it a max dex mod of 16. The padded armor iself is 1 plus 4 enhancement along with other bonused like a much needed discipline boost for a dex based character.

[Jack Oat]

Regarding max dex modifier that rogues provide, jack oat's example should have looked at padded armor options, in particular the armor of immolation would be an example. 24 rogue would make it a max dex mod of 16. The padded armor iself is 1 plus 4 enhancement along with other bonused like a much needed discipline boost for a dex based character.

My example didn't need to talk about that. A max DEX mod of 16 implies you get 30 DEX base. I don't ever recommend sacrificing ability scores to the point where you're getting 30 DEX base. Even so, you could theoretically do the same sacrifice of points for a Monk/Rogue and boost its DEX mod to 15 or 16, which would net much of the same gain.

Also, padded armor would be the same output of AC as the model I used (Armor of the Wilds, UMD req. 35), taking out Fighter bonus since it's the same for both:
Armor of the Wilds:
2 Base armor
6 Base DEX allowance
5 Armor bonus
8 Rogue bonus
Total AC bonus: 21

Padded Armor (Either Armor of Immolation or Padded Vestment of the Holy Squire, UMD req. 45):
1 Base armor
8 DEX allowance
4 Armor bonus
8 Rogue bonus
Total AC bonus: 21

The difference is that the former allows you to just have your DEX 14 modifier and be happy, whereas the second requires you to pump it up to 16.

[Rwby]

Is this thread really about the viability of rogue grenades?

[strong yeet]

I think it's fair to say a discussion of rogues in a thread about a class feature of rogues isn't a significant derail.

Also rogue grenades from 24 are Really Good. The stunner one and the caltrops both kick Snuggybear, though the caltrops are tough to line up properly since they also affect the rogue. (and his friends, should he have any)

[Jack Oat]

Is this thread really about the viability of rogue grenades?

Do y'all think 24 rogue levels solely to access those top tier grenades is worth it, if the character would otherwise lean towards a 6 monk/5 ftr/ 19 rogue build?

I think it's fair to say a discussion of rogues in a thread about a class feature of rogues isn't a significant derail.

[DarkPerin]

Well, I can tell you, Grenades are powerful as can be. I am not entirely sure you can even protect from some of them. I was with someone recently though, that made some really tough areas, look like a cake walk. They were pure rogue. I think their DC for their tools was around 40, and they were stunning entire groups, every time, with ease. If nothing else, you will be highly sought after as the greatest support ever, in PvP and PvE.

Oh, and in a recent tournament, I saw a rogue win with a combination of grenades stunning people, and Crippling Strike.

[Astegard]

People are only looking at the ones you get from the -rogue command but are forgetting the default ones.

Immune to poison yourself (duergar or snake belt)?
Stand in chocking gas with a huge DC while you sneak attack away and enemies have to make a 30+ DC will save every round.
Can add lvl 22 paralyze caltrops to it aswell since your immune to those as duergar.

Want someone flat footed without dodge/ac:
Tanglefoot bag

Let alone the damage acid bombs do as a high level rogue and they also have a no save 75% slow.

[DarkPerin]

The guy I was with, was using choking powder I think. Cheap as can be I am told. (Money wise.) But he was using some others as well. They were some nasty powerful tricks.

So, even pure rogue is nothing to laugh at. And spells that ward you from other spells, do nothing. And they have a powerful dis junction stone, that rips wards off like no ones business. Just seems powerful all around.

Not sure if it is listed, but there is one that is made for constructs as well. I think they have some for different races in general.

[BegoneThoth]

People are only looking at the ones you get from the -rogue command but are forgetting the default ones.

Immune to poison yourself (duergar or snake belt)?
Stand in chocking gas with a huge DC while you sneak attack away and enemies have to make a 30+ DC will save every round.
Can add lvl 22 paralyze caltrops to it aswell since your immune to those as duergar.

Want someone flat footed without dodge/ac:
Tanglefoot bag

Let alone the damage acid bombs do as a high level rogue and they also have a no save 75% slow.

That's potent.