Rogue build

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Mustard Tiger
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Rogue build

Post by Mustard Tiger » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:31 am

I am an nwn vet but I am new to Arelith and the Arelith specific changes are tough for me to work out. I am trying to work out a rogue character, have him all worked out except the build itself. I am thinking of the following starting stats, 10,15,14,16,10,10. I am planning on using rapier/dagger, but would like the flexibility to use a shield or bow depending on party composition.

What I am unsure about is whether I should go pure rogue, 16 rogue, 4 fighter pre epic (for the extra attack + fighter profs and 2 bonus feats + discipline dump) and end up 26-4, or 24 rogue 6 fighter (reading the wiki, looks like rogues don't gain anything for going higher than 24 levels).

What are you Arelith veterans thoughts on a mostly rogue build on this server? Also do I need to max out disable/set trap on this server? Was planning on alternating them each level up for a 17/16 split. Are there any other rogue skills that do not need to be maxed?

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Astegard
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Re: Rogue build

Post by Astegard » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:09 pm

I love pure rogue on this server and its great for utility.
The servers also offer great stuff you can find in chests that you can use with the right UMD.
You can be a true rogue here by avoiding attacking and relying on your AB until you've used gas or whatever to disable your opponent. (and the higher your rogue levels + dex the higher the DC)

I think people are still underestimating the rogue changes as they have never seen the grenades in action.
Choking gas for example has made all 20+ content nearly trivial if enemies aren't poison immune.
You get the anti contruct/undead grenades that do around 150 damage each at lvl 20. (IN AN AOE)

disable/set trap: you need to max these, some of the highest dc's on the server for epic traps. (60ish)

Umskiptar
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Re: Rogue build

Post by Umskiptar » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:04 pm

24 rogue/6 fighter. Everything else is bad.

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Opustus
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Re: Rogue build

Post by Opustus » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:09 pm

I've been able to craft a decent Rogue20/Barbarian4/Fighter6; I contend that the barbarian movement speed and rage movement speed are just that good on a rogue although trumped by Blinding speed in epic, but having both isn't useless by any means.
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Tourmaline
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Re: Rogue build

Post by Tourmaline » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:15 pm

Pre-level 20 you want at least 4 fighter levels to get a fourth attack and weapon specialization. 24/6 is the easiest and most common build. I think there are 20 rogue/5 fighter/5 other class options (Blackguard, perhaps?) that could be good if you are willing to give up the highest level grenades. But still, 24/6 if you are new is the best way to go.

Best advice I could give after playing one though.. You need a good strength score. You will be carrying a lot of stuff around. I would be sure to start with at least 12 or 13.

Mustard Tiger
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Re: Rogue build

Post by Mustard Tiger » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:25 am

Thanks for the replies. A few more questions.

I am finding myself skill point starved, I was wondering...
Does set trap really need to be maxed?
Any point maxing listen if spot is maxed?
I got told the -disguise mechanic isn't working atm. Is it worth taking bluff outside of RP reasons?
Level 22 is the latest I can make my discipline dump, leaving me with 25 discipline. Any point doing that on a dex based char?
Appraise?

Tourmaline
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Re: Rogue build

Post by Tourmaline » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:01 am

What is your build that 22 is the latest you can make a discipline dump? Most people will take a discipline dumping class level at 30 to max it out and 25 disc is definitely not enough.

As far as skills.. Spot is better than listen but they aren't redundant and listen has uses against weak move silently scores (people usually have better hide than MS) and I think, add to the range you can detect invisibility. Spot also breaks disguise but that's a bit of a non-issue. If you can only do one, take spot.

Bluff will be 100% worth it if and when disguise comes back. I'd set points aside but not actually apply them until it does.

Not sure about set trap, but open lock and disable trap do not need to be maxed if you are worried about skill points. You probably don't need to max UMD either, 15 is enough if you don't need to use rare special weapons or armor from different races and classes (which are usually things it will generally be a pain in the Snuggybear to acquire anyway and you can live without)

Basically I would save as many points as I could when leveling up so you can decide on skills when you're more familiar with the character's needs. Just put points into the essentials (hide/ms/heal/tumble) and bank skill points to distribute in later levels. That will make it easier to undo if you change your mind too.
Last edited by Tourmaline on Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Commissar
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Re: Rogue build

Post by Commissar » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:02 am

Mustard Tiger wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:25 am
Does set trap really need to be maxed?
Not at all. Honestly, I find traps to more hindrance than help. You don't get XP from them, they're a burden on your (limited) weight capacity and, in a party, you're unlikely to have time to set them. Limited use, outside of RP specific cases.

If you're insistent that you have it, the maximum set DC for epic traps is 65. You'll get a +20 to the roll as long as you're not in combat, so call it a skill requirement of 45. With +2 skill gear/+1 INT in each slot, 14 base INT, and the +2 synergy bonus from disable trap, you can hit that DC with 16 points in set trap. Can probably squeeze a point or two more off with potions.
Mustard Tiger wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:25 am
Any point maxing listen if spot is maxed?
No. Listen is, outside of the niche cases Tourmaline mentioned above, inferior to spot. I'm uncertain if it's still the case in EE; but I heard that you couldn't target enemies that you detected using listen, which rather defeats the point. Be grateful if someone who knows could confirm that!
Mustard Tiger wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:25 am
I got told the -disguise mechanic isn't working atm. Is it worth taking bluff outside of RP reasons?
There's no mechanical reason to until the system is fixed. I'd bank the skill points for now, in anticipation of a glorious return.
Mustard Tiger wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:25 am
Level 22 is the latest I can make my discipline dump, leaving me with 25 discipline. Any point doing that on a dex based char?
Any discipline is better than no discipline. Though I'm curious as to what sort of build you're planning that won't let you make a later discipline dump. The usual procedure is to take five fighter levels pre-epic, and then a 6th at level 29.
Mustard Tiger wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:25 am
Appraise?
Not required, but nice to have. Combined with search, open lock, and disable trap; you'll be a boon to parties. I tend to sink any leftover skill points on a build into appraise.

Just another note, reconsider having your starting dex so low. You want 18 (after gifts) at a minimum, if you're going to qualify for epic dodge. I'd recommend 19 so that you finish on an even number. The typical rogue stat spread (before gifts) would be something like 13/17/14/8/14/8.

If you're finding yourself point-starved I recommend holding back on putting points in open lock / disable trap. It's tempting to keep on flinging points into that pit; but if you just go with the initial investment at level 1 and then only drop a few points in when you notice DCs getting too high for you to hit, you'll free up some points. Make use of thieve's tools and stat buffs. You're one of the only classes that can make +10 tools (the gift of crafting is your friend). With a dex build, that's almost enough to hit most dungeon DCs with a minimal smattering of points. You can also cut down on lore, if you're investing in it. 10 points will let you identify most common things, and a pair of insight rings will let you identify almost everything else.

Take a look at the cookie-cutter rogue build, if you haven't already. It's the best way to put together this sort of build that I'm aware of.
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Rogue build

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:24 am

Regarding open lock and disable trap: Find yourself an enchanter and get them to make you a bunch of gear with +2 open/disable. Toss that on when need be, and you'll rarely run into any locks or traps that give you trouble.
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Jack Oat
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Re: Rogue build

Post by Jack Oat » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:39 pm

This is what you want, from the build dump.

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Mustard Tiger
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Re: Rogue build

Post by Mustard Tiger » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:43 pm

Thank you. Looks like I mis-read the wiki. I thought you had to take classes in blocks of 3, so was taking levels 20-22 as fighter. I see that was wrong.

I ended up making a very similar build but going 12,16,14,16,8,8 for more skill points.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Rogue build

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Mustard Tiger wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:43 pm
Thank you. Looks like I mis-read the wiki. I thought you had to take classes in blocks of 3, so was taking levels 20-22 as fighter. I see that was wrong.

I ended up making a very similar build but going 12,16,14,16,8,8 for more skill points.
If you don't start with at least 18 Dex, you won't be able to take epic dodge and blinding speed without also taking two Great Dex feats.
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Mustard Tiger
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Re: Rogue build

Post by Mustard Tiger » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:59 am

Yeah I took the +2 dex gift.

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