PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

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Wytchee
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PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Wytchee » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:46 pm

So shadowdancers are great in PvE but how viable are they in PvP given that their main gimmick is largely irrelevant in PvP situations?

Is Rogue 8 / Fighter 6 / Shadowdancer 16 the standard still? Or Rogue 11 / Fighter 6 / Shadow dancer 13?

Just gimme your creative Shadowdancer builds, kthx.
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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Jack Oat » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:13 pm

Fighter 8/Rogue 5/SD 17 is the big one iirc. They do OK in PvP but as you pointed out, they have their flaws.

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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Shadowy Reality » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:17 pm

I don't remember exactly the level split I had for mine, but it was heavier on the fighter and lighter on the rogue. Something like Fighter8/rogue5/SD17. He also also Strength Based, using a longsword and shield.

With Epic Shadow Lord you want your SD level + 10 to be a multiple of 3, so either 17 or 14 SD levels.

As for PvP... It's never going to be a Weapon Master, nor a Rogue heavy build. It's much harder to use than either and just plain worse. You can pull decent AC numbers with Shadow Evade, even with Strength builds, I think mine reached 66 AC with IE. Your AB is fine. Your damage is alright, provided you have your Shadow out and manage to sneak. If not, you are just a fighter with no critical or sneak.
  • use your shadow, it is extremely tanky
  • use and abuse HiPS, that is how you survive, come out of stealth with a knockdown, attack for a flurry or two and then run away if things aren't going your way, wait for the HiPS timer and repeat

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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Wytchee » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:33 pm

So is it recommended to go full 17 or will 14 levels suffice for epic content?

How is damage one-handed/shield compared to two-handed or dual wield?

So many questions!
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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Shadowy Reality » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:40 am

With 17 levels your Shadow Evade becomes 12/+4 vs 10/+3 with level 14. That's pretty big, if you are fighting someone with a +3 weapon. You also get two more SD bonus feats.

I don't think 3 extra levels of fighter/rogue would give you that much.

Sneaking damage isn't affected by wielding a 1h or a 2h. It might be beneficial to dual-wield as that nets you more sneak attacks but bear in mind you'll be losing at least 5 AC for those two extra attacks. I am still leaning towards Strength-based Shadowdancers versus Dex-based, mostly because you don't become useless when you find something immune to sneak attacks, or when your shadow is not with you. Damage is respectable with a 1h and Strength, I was doing up to 120 on critical + sneaks, about 50-70 on sneaks.

As for Epic Content, you have nothing to worry about. I remember beating solo Blackfin, Jangling Hiter in Minauros and even the Mourn. This last one is not trivial, specially because of the mages, but if you avoid those, the place is manageable, just need to make sure the vampires always attack your shadow. All in all, it was the easiest leveling experience I had in Arelith.

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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Tourmaline » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:55 am

Don't shadows get a bump in their strength at 18? That's what I was told, to go for 18, so if that's wrong.. I am building wrong.

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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:37 am

So the SD Shadow gets DR/+6 and regen equal to Shadow HD/3. At SD 17, the Shadow has 27 HD (assuming you took Epic Shadowlord, which... do it), meaning 9/+6 DR and 9 regen. The ONLY thing you gain by going to SD 18 is +1% concealment.... so you are, in fact, building wrong. The person who told you to go SD 18 probably mistakenly thought that the DR and regen scaled off of SD level.
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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by sad_zav » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:32 am

17/8/5 is the build to go, yes. there's a str variant and a dex variant.

str pros:
more damage (both for you and your shadow)
more carry weight

dex pros:
better hide/ms
way tankier (and you take edodge)

there's a str variant that goes 2h and another that goes dw. keep in mind that more APR for you means just as much for your shadow, so dual wielding is very valuable. I will PM you the dex dw and str dw builds, as I believe they are the best.
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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Peppermint » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:28 am

FWIW, the current state of the shadowdancer came around as a band-aid fix when I was working on summons, as I realized I could tackle two problems at once (i.e. rework the shadow and put the shadowdancer in a much better spot).

However, I don't feel the class is particularly well-rounded. As mentioned, it's great for PvE, but its gimmick substantially limits it in PvP. I considered that acceptable for a quick fix, but its current state is a bit of a 'known problem'*.

(* Which is not to say that I expect it'll necessarily be resolved any time soon. But I do feel the class should get another go at some point in the future, if only to round it out a bit.)

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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Wytchee » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:01 am

Is parry viable for 1v1 situations, still? I can manage about 78 parry. Coupled with epic dodge and 55ish AC while out of expertise mode, this sounds viable on the surface at least. Does parry work as advertised?
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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by strong yeet » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:49 am

Parry is good but it's very easy to play around. You can't move, you can't attack normally -- if someone fighting you realises what you're doing they don't have to do very much to juke your parry. The good news is you can break out of parry mode pretty easy.

Suffice to say relying on parry mode to do your offence for you is probably a bad idea; definitely take it if you can though, because it's a great option to have. Essentially it forces your opponent to either move away from you, flat foot themselves, or take big damage.

Like everyone else in this thread has said so far it's really difficult to make a PVP shadowdancer. It can be done, but the cold truth is that you'll simply never be as good in most PVP as a rogue, or a DEX wm, or a ranger, or something like that. This isn't to say you're useless -- you can still output respectable enough damage, you have HiPS which is pretty good now with the nerfs to True Sight -- but all of these classes basically do what you do. They're simply better at it.

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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by DarkPerin » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:44 pm

Corner sneaking will always be greater than HIPS. They have advantages in pve, but that is where it ends. I don't think there will ever be one that can be competitive in PvP. Except against other flavor builds. They do have one advantage in PvP. HIPS will temporarily hide you from even true sight when you first use it. At least in default nwn. HIPS has a sort of greater sanctuary effect.

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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:03 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:37 am
So the SD Shadow gets DR/+6 and regen equal to Shadow HD/3. At SD 17, the Shadow has 27 HD (assuming you took Epic Shadowlord, which... do it), meaning 9/+6 DR and 9 regen. The ONLY thing you gain by going to SD 18 is +1% concealment.... so you are, in fact, building wrong. The person who told you to go SD 18 probably mistakenly thought that the DR and regen scaled off of SD level.
Where can I get the real info in shadow HD in relation to SD lvl so I don't build stupid.
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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:32 pm

On the Shadowdancer page on the Arelith wiki.
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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:43 pm

Do only 17 and 20 shadow dancer make a difference with epic shadow lord? I didn't realixe the sneak damage was also based off the shadow HD vs SD level. Interesting.
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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Tourmaline » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:28 pm

I think the strength of SD in PVP is avoiding it altogether. If you want to win, play something else, but if you want to choose your battles or avoid confrontation it is quite good. This goes way past PVP of course and extends to any time you'd want to drop out of sight, whether sneaking around cities or avoiding patrols or whatever.

HiPS is very reliable for what it does. The process of entering NWN stealth once you're been seen is not reliable at all, both invisibility/darkness+stealth and cornersneaking+stealth are gambles in PVP and PVE. If you're in stealth to begin with, of course, it works quite well but you can never never fully trust non-HiPS stealth for dropping out of sight if the enemy knows you are there.

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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Wytchee » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:14 am

Sorry to resurrect this two-week-old thread, but I'm working out a few builds. Can someone tell me if 14/15 SD levels + Epic Shadow Lord is sufficient for epic content, or is the difference SO great between 15/17 that I should go all in? Thanks.
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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Baron Saturday » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:30 am

I'd probably lean towards 17. Gives the shadow +3% concealment, +1 Regen, and +1 DR, while the SD gets their DR from shadow evade bumped up to 12/+4. That's the main reason, really - that will be effective in a good chunk of PvP fights. An extra epic feat is nice, too.
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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Wytchee » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:31 am

Baron Saturday wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:30 am
I'd probably lean towards 17. Gives the shadow +3% concealment, +1 Regen, and +1 DR, while the SD gets their DR from shadow evade bumped up to 12/+4. That's the main reason, really - that will be effective in a good chunk of PvP fights. An extra epic feat is nice, too.
15 SD levels is sufficient for the 12/+4 boost to Shadow Evade, though. So 15 levels would have me lose 2% concealment and +1 Regen/DR (edit: and an epic feat but shrug), but with the build I have in mind those aren't SO important. I just want to know if a level 25 shadow can hold its own in epic content compared to a level 27 shadow.
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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Baron Saturday » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:45 am

Oh yeah, for sure. Those things are super tanky, especially with epic shadowlord.
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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Wytchee » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:54 am

Thanks!
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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Hellscr3am » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:09 pm

Would anyone have a good idea on the optimal way to build a Fighter 8/Rogue 5/SD 17 half-orc that uses a double-bladed weapon? (Free feat from the Orc, Str based)

Pretty sure the damage output must be great!

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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:49 am

Hellscr3am wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:09 pm
Would anyone have a good idea on the optimal way to build a Fighter 8/Rogue 5/SD 17 half-orc that uses a double-bladed weapon? (Free feat from the Orc, Str based)

Pretty sure the damage output must be great!
Apparently a couple people did this and it was fun for them. Not sure it holds up in pvp but then again you have the power to avoid unfavorable conflict.

The fact you split the levels thay way suggest you might already know the optimal way. What did you have in mind so far?
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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Fabes » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:28 am

Alright, so what about this one then:

Two options (I’m right at the crossroads right now, with a similar build as the OP):

- Dex-based as mentioned earlier, 8 Ftr/5 Rogue/17 SD, dual-wielding rapier and (currently) dagger.

OR

- Similar, but 6 Ftr/10 Rogue/14 SD, taking advantage of the rapier/dagger buff the rogues get at lvl 10 (all weapon feats for the other weapon etc).

Is the latter worth it?

At the moment I’m 4 Ftr/5 Rogue, and ready to go SD next level but got totally confused after reading this thread, hahah..!

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Re: PvP-Viable Shadowdancer

Post by Opustus » Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:26 pm

Even Fighter10/Rogue3/SD17 would be good, granted you don't need the skills desperately and can start with Fighter levels. SD gets Tumble, you can bump UMD up to 11 before starting to take the SD levels. Will have to do without Weapon finesse till level 5 or 6, though.

The build after OR is probably not better. Dualwielding a rapier in mainhand is not overly important, since your main source of damage is your Sneak attack. However, I have a STR Rogue11/Fighter5/SD14 in the garage waiting for levelup, going Opportunist for maximum damage output. If you like bigger damage numbers, forsaking all else, it's the build for you!
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