Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

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Astegard
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Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by Astegard » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:00 am

Hey all,

Wanted to have a balance discussion on throwing weapons vs arrows/bolts/sling
How do you feel they match up? Why do I barely see any throwing weapon builds?
I think the main decision point, with the recent essence changes, is do you want shield AC OR 2-4 damage and higher crit (bowx3 or xbow19-20 x2).

Short summary of the two (if i missed anything please comment!):
Throwing weapons:
Benefits:
-Mighty by default no limit (str bonus to damage)
-Can be used with shield. (up to 3AC + other shield bonus)
-bonus damage for barbarians (throwing axe only)

Cons:
-Very heavy (5lb 50 darts/shurikens, 50 throwing axes 50lb, now a lot more manageable thanks to bundles)
-Stacks of 50 and does not auto switch to other stack in inventory when out of ammo so your character runs into enemies to punch them. (Solved with stack fix, now allows large stacks of throwing weapons to be held)
-low base damage + only 2x crits. (Shuriken 1d3, dart 1d4, throwAxe 1d6)

Bows/Xbow/sling
Benefits:
-No ammo weight
-Gain improvements through the bow/xbow/sling used (mighty, Massive Crit 2d10 etc on top of projectile bonus)
-Many specialized bows/xbows that can be crafted

Cons:
- Cant be used with shield
-Crossbows are dependent on the rapid reload feat for more that 1 attack

I ignored any special ammo you can find as the recent switch to templates made those very situational an overall worse.
Last edited by Astegard on Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:33 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by Jagel » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:17 am

Remember that shurikens are not mighty by default

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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by Opustus » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:45 pm

A slinger halfling ranger would be great, I have to assume. Compared to a bow ranger, it can wield a shield and gets the +1 ab from hin trait. Weapon finesse for free from Rogue3 for when you must melee.
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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by Kenji » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:55 pm

Keep in mind that Crossbow is the only ranged launcher type that doesn't benefit from the Rapid Shot feat whereas every other type can gain an APR from it.

Crossbow also requires Rapid Reload in order for the PC to reach the same APR while using a crossbow, otherwise is limited to 1 APR without the feat.

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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by Astegard » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:07 pm

Kenji3108 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:55 pm
Crossbow also requires Rapid Reload in order for the PC to reach the same APR while using a crossbow, otherwise is limited to 1 APR without the feat.
True aswell, i made a crossbow character. Can get huge crits though with the craftable crossbows.

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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by Kenji » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:44 am

I did the math (statistics) and here is a comprehensive list of Ashwood Crossbow damage vs Ashwood Longbow vs Elite Sling. Feel free to correct any part of the math if you find them unconvincing:

TL;DR:
  • General Consensus: Longbow is the superior choice thanks to Rapid Shot
  • Data analysis: At 2 APR or lower (unlikely that the PC has the following items at that level), Crossbows are the inferior choice. Crossbows start shining after 3 APR (4 APR for other launchers)
  • Mid-Conclusion: Provided all variables are controlled, Crossbows deal more damage on average vs creatures that are not immune to crit when all shots are made at 95% chance.
  • Afterthought: Further analysis is required. Ranger and Fighter's + flat damage has not been taken into account. That might just make a difference in extra APR.
Let's start with the averages: (Assume all are elves with +2 Dex, maximizes mighty property, except for sling being a halfling PC, all PCs have imp. crit.)
Ashwood Heavy Crossbow: 1d10, 17-20 x2
AB +4, Mighty +6, Massive Crit 2d10, Dex +2
Average = 11.5 = ((1+10) / 2) + 6
5% of 0 dmg, 20% of 34 dmg (crit)

Ashwood Longbow: 1d8, avg: 4.5, 19-20 x3
AB +3, Mighty +4, Massive Crit 2d10, Dex +2
Average = 8.5 = ((1+8)/2)+4
5% of 0 dmg, 10% of 36.5 dmg (crit)

Enchanted Elite Sling: 1d4, avg: 2.5, 19-20 x2
AB +4 (+5 for halfling), Mighty +6, Massive Crit 2d10, Dex +2
Average = 8.5 = ((1+4)/2)+6
5% of 0 dmg, 10% of 28 dmg (crit)

Then onto the statistics part:
Scenario 1: All hits are 95%
Crossbow (referred as CB from now on):
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
CB damage for 95% hit chance = 15.425 = 11.5 * .75 + 34 * .2
CB 2 APR = 30.85
CB 3 APR = 46.275
CB 4 APR = 61.7

Longbow (LB) and Sling (SL):
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
Longbow Damage for 95% hit chance = 10.875 = 8.5 * .85 + 36.5 * .1
Sling Damage for 95% hit chance = 10.025 = 8.5 * .85 + 28 * .1
LB 3 APR = 32.625
LB 4 APR = 43.5
LB 5 APR = 54.375

SL 3 APR = 30.075
SL 4 APR = 40.1
SL 5 APR = 50.125

Scenario 2: First hit is 95% (right at the enemy AC +20), all consecutive hits are 25% lower than the previous one
WIP
Note: LB has 10% lower on all rolls relative to other launchers, SL has 5% lower on all rolls thanks to being a halfling

Scenario nth: First and second hits are 95%
WIP

Let me know if I missed something. This is still an early calculation on assuming that the enemy creature against the hit chance has really low AC

I theorize that later calculations will suggest that an extra attack might just even out the damage potential at some point. But where?
Last edited by Kenji on Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by Astegard » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:30 pm

Nice insight through these calculations, maybe should be limited to the first 3 attacks as attack 4 and 5 should have a real low chance of hitting AB wise.

Another point that surprises me is that the Exotic weapon Shuriken 1d3 is weaker than the default dart 1d4. Is this just to compensate for the monk flurry?

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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by yellowcateyes » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:17 pm

Vanilla shuriken are just that bad. Shuriken being compatible with monk UBAB is actually an Arelith-specific change.

Currently, I imagine shuriken are most worthwhile when combined with added damage that, along with monk UBAB progression, compensates for its low base stats. Example builds that can make use of this are monk assassins, and zen cleric monks with divine feats.
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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by Kenji » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:03 pm

I have completed the spreadsheet, here is the link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
It is currently locked for view only. Feel free to double check the parameters to see if anything is wrong.

Note that if DR goes higher than average damage, it will show a negative value. I decided to not make the results 0 but show the negative value meaning whatever DR is not bypassed will be saved by that certain amount.

The TL;DR of the report is:
  • Ashwood Crossbows are better all across the board above 2APR. (Especially true when DR is involved)
  • The only time where Longbow surpasses Crossbows by damage is when the PC is a Ranger 21-24 / Fighter 4 with 24+ flat dmg bonus and when PC's AB >> enemy AC.
  • When enemy AC > PC's AB, Slings do better than bows.
---
Now that all the grunt work is done, the sheet can be easily edited to fit any other launchers with inferior properties as well as modifying the values to see if which values are the best for balancing.

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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by whoisthisis » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:52 pm

The biggest headache with throwing weapons is the weight.

It is a shame NWN didn't implement the magical ability to have the weapon fly back to your hand, like in the Infinity engine games.

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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by Scraps » Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:06 pm

Couple of points I'd like to add. Shurikens have -no- weight, and do not have mighty unless enchanted with it,

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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by Kenji » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:14 pm

Hi guys, I found a mistake in my spreadsheet and have updated the whole thing.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

It should be slightly easier to follow, I now have a slightly different conclusion, but it's still pretty similar to the previous iteration of the spreadsheet.

AC: 58 for Fully Buffed WM (PvP), 30 for generic monsters
AB: 51 for Ranger/Ftr/Dip builds with Riding (+2 AB with Mounted Combat/Archery)

TL;DR:
  • Slings are the best choice for any PCs that don't dedicate into ranged (No rapid reload for crossbow)
  • Crossbows are better than the other launchers vs high AC opponents only when hasted, by a large margin, too!
  • Bows are the better choice vs low AC opponents when not hasted
  • Slings are the better choice vs high AC opponents when not hasted
I guess the thing to take from this is to have haste sources available if you're a crossbow user, blinding speed is even more of an important factor.

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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by Wytchee » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:04 pm

Not for nothing, but sling ammo is bludgeoning while all other ammo is either piercing or slashing.

Sling is the superior choice against undead, constructs, etc.
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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by Astegard » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:08 am

Throwing weapons were also saved by the new stack change.
makes the following no longer valid:
-Stacks of 50 and does not auto switch to other stack in inventory when out of ammo so your character runs into enemies to punch them.

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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by Kenji » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:24 am

Turns out greensteel throwing shurikens (I assume other throwing variants are the same, as well) are only +2 with 1d6 massive crit.

This means throwing weapons have no AB +4 like crossbows or slings! Most likely only the loot ones are available, but those will be terrible for damage purposes.

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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by ltlukoziuz » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:17 am

I should add a note I discovered while playing a Dwarf who is throwing his axes (currently still a lowly 9th level ranger) - they're actually 1d8 (not sure if bug or not), even though on the item it shows 1d6. In char sheet, it shows 1-8, and indeed, by throwing many of them, I can assure that a full range of 1-8 has been seen.

I will try crafting greensteel axes few days later (still need some forging points to not screw it up, and I'm getting Steels on 9th level still from Archer ability) to confirm that it's the same for T.Axes.

I will just say that there's something satisfying seeing dwarf chucking axes at foes, especially when even with only a single 1d6 template, I am already chucking them at 20+ damage. (The screenshot is before applying Bull's, Cat's and Rapid Shot modal)

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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by dalasthesalad » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:15 pm

Is there any way I can improve my sling damage without having to craft a masterly one (+1 mighty)? I tried taking rogue levels for sneak attack of course, but I also want to deal good damage while up close using PBS.

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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by Kenji » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:45 pm

dalasthesalad wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:15 pm
Is there any way I can improve my sling damage without having to craft a masterly one (+1 mighty)? I tried taking rogue levels for sneak attack of course, but I also want to deal good damage while up close using PBS.
The ways of improving ranged damage are through the following:
1. Class choices:
- Ranger, Archer path, available at lvl1 only (+2 damage @ lvl4, and another every 8 levels from there on)
- Fighter (Weapon Specialization +2, Epic Weapon Specialization +4, total of +6)
2. Enchant Mighty property (only +1 available), you will need 12 str total in order to utilize this
3. Craft better slings with mighty property:
- Grand Masterly Sling (+2 mighty, 14 str required to utilize fully)
- Elite Sling (+2 Mighty, 14 str required to utilize fully)
- Enhanced Elite Sling (+6 mighty, 22 str required to utilize fully)
4. Assemble better ammunition:
- You'll first need access to bags of bullets
- And then craft yourself an assembly template
- More info can be found here: viewtopic.php?p=157960#p157960

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Re: Throwing weapons VS Arrows/bolts/sling

Post by dalasthesalad » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:16 pm

Oh, thanks for such a detailed reply!

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