The "Bard Dip"

[Baron Saturday]

Here's what I'm wondering about. If the PvP'ers absolutely know that everyone and their mother takes Discipline, why do they even bother with Knockdown in the first place?

Few reasons. For one, it's crazy useful in PvE. For another, non-strength builds - even those with discipline dumps, ESF discipline, and discipline gear - will have discipline low enough (upper 50s, generally) that a high AB character can get a lucky KD in. And of course, there's the tried and true True Strike/KD combo, which can be very effective if your target doesn't know to run away when you drink the true strike pot.

[Rwby]

Even if Knockdown was edited by the admins to have a 0% success chance against PCs, we'd still take it for it's use in PvE content.

[Hunter548]

Here's what I'm wondering about. If the PvP'ers absolutely know that everyone and their mother takes Discipline, why do they even bother with Knockdown in the first place?

Just because everyone should take discipline, doesn't mean everyone does. Combine that with all the mage mobs who knockdown shuts down very well and the factors mentioned by Cortex and Wrips, and its usually worth picking up.

[flower]

KD and IKD is very viable in PVE. If you can KD that npc mage it means less spells getting off on you.

And if you have it already, why not to use it in PvP….

[Wytchee]

Also, not everyone takes discipline. >.> any wild mage worth their salt, for instance.

Or pure druids.

[kiljaedon]

I just get the feeling that maybe knock down should get the stunning fist treatment with limited uses per rest.

[Artenides]

I say this because I play a majority level bard, and I almost never see anyone else say, "oh I know how to sing too", or "I am also a musician." But seemingly every build has a level or more of bard in it for the "Discipline" thing.

Doesn't that feel a little cheesy to anyone? I feel like if you do this, you should at least RP it a little bit.

I completely agree, if you take a "dip" you should explain it somehow and RP it.
I took 3 bard levels for my wizard (for the discipline dump and UMD) and this is how I justify it:

RPing UMD: My wizard took additional lessons and read books about magical items and detailed instructions on how to use such items...

RPing Discipline: Often travelling with fighters and other swordsmen he had several occasions to practice melee combat and learned certain defensive moves from them.

RPing the bard levels: Studies that were focusing on the Arcane. My char cannot sing (never uses the bard ability either).

I know it is not the perfect justification for everything but at least it is something...

[Dalenger]

I just get the feeling that maybe knock down should get the stunning fist treatment with limited uses per rest.

The kind of treatment that nerfs it into oblivion?

[msterswrdsmn]

Here's what I'm wondering about. If the PvP'ers absolutely know that everyone and their mother takes Discipline, why do they even bother with Knockdown in the first place?

Not everyone that -has- discipline is going to have a -high- discipline score. Whenever building comes up on the forum, a lot of times, there seems to be an assumption that we're talking about high level, maxed-out characters. Everyone goes through that awkward low level stage.

Not all builds are equal~ Also, disarm and called shot can wreck your day just as badly as knockdown in some situations.

As for justifying classes/skill dumps...thats really, really easy. Especially considering how open ended the bard class is from a rp point to begin with (the jack of all trades class)

[Alox]

I just get the feeling that maybe knock down should get the stunning fist treatment with limited uses per rest.

Or make discipline a class skill for everyone.

Would still need to invest the points and take the epic feat if you want to defend against knock down, but no longer the silly 3 bard dip on every character.

[kiljaedon]

Well, knockdown with no real penalties for spamming it leaves it in the category of must-have feats on almost any build. It should at least give a slight penalty for using it unlike right now with it being a full damage move along with prone/knockdown.

[Hunter548]

Well, knockdown with no real penalties for spamming it leaves it in the category of must-have feats on almost any build. It should at least give a slight penalty for using it unlike right now with it being a full damage move along with prone/knockdown.

It already gives a penalty for using it; Using it applies a penalty to your AB (barring interactions between different size categories).

Making it limited uses for rest also doesn't give it a penalty for spamming it, and most people don't use it more than once a round anyways.

[Wytchee]

I'm of the opinion that KD is fine but that a lack of discipline, say on pure wild mages, is a bit too crippling a disadvantage in PvP.

Unless you get the jump, there's virtually no defense against anyone with stealth for instance. Any level 10 ogue with KD could murder my poor wild mage (at level 30) with very little difficulty just by spamming knockdown. In these cases there is no counterplay. Then again I suck and am bad at PvP so I try to avoid it anyway.

[msterswrdsmn]

If you -know- its coming, its a lot more managable. Truesight, any persistant AoE spell (even if it doesn't stop them, you'll know when they touch it upon approach), or just straight up murdering someone with a large AoE attack in their general area will work. Even if you don't have discipline, its not like discipline is the ONLY defense against knockdown either; significantly higher AC, concealment, avoiding melee range, changing your size via shifting, etc.