All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Discussions related to character builds and mechanics may occur here.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

ldm
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:09 pm

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by ldm » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:25 pm

greatfanfare wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:21 am
I believe it's time to rename the Complex Template to "Masochistic Complex Template that breaks down and you can't repair, needing months of therapy to regain your self-esteem"

Code: Select all

Complex Template 

	- 1 Adaptive Gears: 
		1 Standard Catalyst -Alchemy- 40skp + 2skp + 5skp + 10skp = 57 skillpoints on 3 skills
			1 Blood of a Magic Creature, 1 Ingot Silver -Forging- 2skp [4 Coal, 2 Rock Chunk Silver], 
			1 Glass bottle -Art- 5skp [2 Glass 10skp (2 Sand, 2 Coal), 2 Coal]

		2 Brass Gears -Forging- 12skp + 8skp + 5skp + 10skp + 4skp = 39 skillpoints on 3 skills
			2 Flask of Oil -Herb- 8skp [4 Harnak Seeds, 2 Glass Vial -Art- 5skp (2 Glass 10skp (2 Sand, 2 Coal), 2 Coal)
			2 Brass Ingot -Forging- 4skp [4 Coal, 2 Rock Chunk Copper, 2 Rock Chunk Zinc]


		1 Dragon Oil -Alch/Herb- 80skp + 20skp + 5skp + 10skp = 115 skillpoints on 3 skills
			1 Dragonhide
			1 Dragon Blood
			5 Flask of Oil -Herb- 20skp [10 Harnak Seeds, 5 Glass Vial -Art- 5skp (2 Glass 10skp (2 Sand, 2 Coal), 2 Coal)
			

		1 Emulsified Oil -Alch/Carp- 20skp + 5skp + 10skp + 10skp + 8skp + 4skp + 5 skp + 10 skp + 10 skp = 82 skillpoints on 3 skills
			4 Harnak Seeds
			2 Charcoal -Carp/Herb- 5skp 
				2 Glass Bottle -Art- 5skp [2 Glass 10skp (2 Sand, 2 Coal), 2 Coal]
				4 Hardwood 
				1 Alchemist's Fire -Alch- 10skp
					1 Lesser Catalyst -Alch- 8skp 
						1 Blood of a Magic Creature
						1 Brass Ingot -Forging- 4skp [2 Coal, 1 Rock Chunk Copper, 1 Rock Chunk Zinc]
						1 Glass Bottle -Art- 5skp [2 Glass 10skp (2 Sand, 2 Coal), 2 Coal]
					10 Glass Vial -Art- Glass Vial -Art- 10skp (2 Glass 10skp (2 Sand, 2 Coal), 2 Coal)
					5 Fluorspar  
			1 Rock Chunk (Iron) 
			1 Small Seed Balm -Herb/Carp- 10skp [3 Strideleaf, 6 Nuts, 3 Sassone Leaves, 6 Yarrow Leaves]


	- 4 Glass Vial -Art- 5skp (2 Glass 10skp (2 Sand, 2 Coal), 2 Coal)
	- 2 Hardwood
	- 1 Diamond

Supposing you find the gems instead of cutting them, it's about a 308 skillpoint investment on multiple crafting skills.

You can save some points from finding bottles/vials or adding the spare ones from one object to the next, 
if you craft everything mostly by yourself.
I agree with you. It is not worth the investment because the return is little. I just go with the stable template with a +4 permanent (slot 1), +4 permanent (slot 2) and keep changing the unstable slot. It is easy to repair and i never have to add a permanent essence. It is working very well for me.

DarkPerin
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:52 pm

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by DarkPerin » Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:53 pm

This Ranger 7 / Assassin 9 / AA 14 is worse than Range6/Assn13/AA 11.

You get one more point of damage, from your AA levels, I think... +3 more AB? (Epic prowess.) And +2 AC. For a build that already has way more than enough AB. But on the other hand, you give up +4 Magic damage, and ethereal visage, which provides 20/+3 DR. Also defensive roll, and your darkness won't provide Ultravision. (Though something might consider the last part a benefit, considering the darkness bug.) And to a small effect, you have +1 to you poison DCs, and +4 DC from your death attack, possibly more if you have high Int. Which isn't hard to get from buffs.

Also, weapon Finesse is a wasted Feat. Your stats are a waste in melee. You could make yourself a tank, but not worth it. Instead, you should go for skill focus, Move SIlently. Raising your Hide is easy, but MS suffers. And yes. This does matter in Epic PvP.

You also get more skill points with assn. Bluff is a wasted stat. I don't even particularly care for it IC. I'd rather have spot, and Animal Empathy, with my Discipline dump at the end. You can get some really powerful monsters to take around with you, which more or less makes this a solo class in PvE. Also, you will be completely destroying any disguise you do come across, so people aren't likely to hide from you. The only likely exceptions, are bards. Or someone that has ridiculously high bluff for some reason. Dedicated gear to it.


Edit: Side note. To anyone that has ever played this build, or similar ones, you will know you won't need epic Discipline, unless you don't have DISC on your gear for some reason. The amount of time it takes for someone to drink a true strike potion, and attack, gives you time to get back into cover.

User avatar
Kenji
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 am
Location: Mechanics Dungeon

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by Kenji » Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:25 am

Edit for TL;DR:
Jack's build deals more avg dmg when enemy's AC > PC's AB
DarkPerin's build deals more avg dmg when enemy's AC < PC's AB

original reply:
Not gonna get into the debate regarding disc thing or other stuffs, but I can offer some insight on AB vs Dmg, here are the two pics that essentially shows AB directly translates to higher avg dmg vs high AC opponents. (Or same AC, depending on the arrows at this point, actually)

Crits, Highly essenced arrows or mundane arrows are also accounted for:
Templated Arrows
Image
Mundane Arrows
Image

DarkPerin
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:52 pm

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by DarkPerin » Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:16 am

If you don't want more move silently, then take Great Fortitude. Weapon Finesse is still a wasted feat.

Also, I am not sure why you chose 58 AC specifically, but both builds will have more than 50 AB. I think mine will have 53. Possibly more. I don't know how much better the Ashwood bow, is compared to the grand bow.

And fair enough points for the rest.

User avatar
Jack Oat
Posts: 734
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:46 am
Location: The Slanty Shanty

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by Jack Oat » Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:22 am

DarkPerin wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:16 am
If you don't want more move silently, then take Great Fortitude. Weapon Finesse is still a wasted feat.
Jack Oat wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:51 am
...Okay while I disagree, I can see the logic in instead going for something like SF/GSF Trans or Abj for their bonuses. Maybe save feats (luckofheroes.jpg) to mitigate the otherwise somewhat low saves.

DarkPerin wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:16 am
Also, I am not sure why you chose 58 AC specifically,
Jack Oat wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:51 am
(full-buffed 1h WM w/ expertise).



Try 49. 23 BAB, 14 DEX, 3 WF/EWF, 3 Bow bonus, 6 AA bonus. 47 in Rapid Shot because -2 AB for another attack.
DarkPerin wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:16 am
I don't know how much better the Ashwood bow, is compared to the grand bow.
This is fair as it hasn't been posted to the Wiki. I know for a fact it's +3 AB, I believe the other stats are +2 DEX, +4 Mighty, and 2d10 Massive Criticals.
DarkPerin wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:16 am
And fair enough points for the rest.
Thanks.


Edited by Forum mods for tone.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


DarkPerin
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:52 pm

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by DarkPerin » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:07 am

Well, the problem with your math here, is the BAB. 6ranger/13/Assn/11AA has more than 23 AB. 13 Assn levels only lose you 3 or 4 AB. I forget if the lost AB is on the first level of 3/4 or the fourth. Either way, that is either a BAB of 26, or 27. So your math is wrong.

If you could stop being rude, it would be much appreciated. I am just trying to discuss the build. No need to drop insults about basic math.

Edit: It will be 26 BAB. That will come out to a total of 52. But I can already get to 14 Dex right now. I will be at 15 when I am done. Making it 53, exactly like I said.

User avatar
Jack Oat
Posts: 734
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:46 am
Location: The Slanty Shanty

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by Jack Oat » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:15 am

DarkPerin wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:07 am
Well, the problem with your math here, is the BAB. 6ranger/13/Assn/11AA has more than 23 AB. 13 Assn levels only lose you 3 or 4 AB. I forget if the lost AB is on the first level of 3/4 or the fourth. Either way, that is either a BAB of 26, or 27. So your math is wrong.
My math isn't wrong. BAB doesn't get above 25 on Arelith since the level cap is 30. 20 BAB pre-epic max, 5 from Epic levels.

Here's what you did:
6 BAB from 6 Ranger (a 1/1 BAB class)
9 from 13 Assassin (a 3/4 BAB class)
11 from 11 AA (a 1/1 BAB class)

But that isn't how BAB progression works. BAB stops progressing based on class selection when you hit Epics. So instead you do your pre-epic calculations, then add the 5 you get from Epic BAB progression.

You have to take 5 Ranger before you start Assassin, and assuming you take your last Ranger in late Epics for the final DISC dump (as you should), that means a pre-epic split at most of 5 Ranger/5 Assassin/10 AA since you can't do more than 10 levels of a Prestige Class pre-epic.

You say you don't know if the AB is lost on the first or the fourth level. It's the first level. So you don't gain AB at level 1 and 5 for Assassin.

The way the math should look is:
5 from 5 Ranger (1/1 BAB class)
3 from 5 Assassin (3/4 BAB class)
10 from 10 Arcane Archer (1/1 BAB class)

So now your pre-epic BAB is 18. And then you get 1 in Epics for every odd level, so 21, 23, 25, 27, and 29. That's 5. So your BAB comes out to 23.
DarkPerin wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:07 am
If you could stop being rude, it would be much appreciated. I am just trying to discuss the build. No need to drop insults about basic math.
DM Spyre wrote:It's Jack. What do you expect?
You aren't discussing the build, you're attacking it with fallacies, improper and just plain bad advice, and incorrect math.

In essence, you're coming in here trying to tell new players that your build is the better way, when it isn't. That aggravates me.

A discussion would start with something like "Hey wouldn't X be better because of this, this, and this? Wouldn't you want to take Y because of this and this? Wouldn't Z give you better AB progression?" Those are discussion words.
DarkPerin wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:07 am
Edit: It will be 26 BAB. That will come out to a total of 52. But I can already get to 14 Dex right now. I will be at 15 when I am done. Making it 53, exactly like I said.
The math for the first part of this is above. Even with 15 DEX (which costs you 5 points deducted elsewhere from your stat spread, or 2 points and an Epic feat), your AB only goes up to 50 while the one I offered is still 52, without needing to sacrifice those same points. It'd be 53 if it also went for 15 DEX mod.
Last edited by Jack Oat on Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


Alox
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by Alox » Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:37 am

DarkPerin wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:07 am
Well, the problem with your math here, is the BAB. 6ranger/13/Assn/11AA has more than 23 AB. 13 Assn levels only lose you 3 or 4 AB. I forget if the lost AB is on the first level of 3/4 or the fourth. Either way, that is either a BAB of 26, or 27. So your math is wrong.
At levels 21-30 everyone gets the "epic" BAB progression of 1/2 no matter what class they take on those level ups. Similar thing with saves.

Edit: oh missed someone had already replied.

DarkPerin
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:52 pm

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by DarkPerin » Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:48 pm

If I was attacking it, I wouldn't have admitted I was wrong so easily before, as I do now. I haven't played NWN in a while man. The last I played, was NWN 2, and the engine doesn't have Epic BAB progression. I assumed it was the same on NWN. I also had someone tell me, you didn't need Epic Disc unless you were trying to avoid True Strike potions. As long as you had DISC on your gear anyways.

Just because I am wording everything as a question, doesn't mean I am declaring it a statement of fact, or arguing it is the greatest thing ever. The only things I said that about, was my opinion of Weapon Finesse on a range build, instead of something like greater fortitude.

You're right on nearly everything in this discussion as far as I see. Again, I don't mind admitting such. Where skills go, such as Bluff is just a matter of taste. Though I think something like Spot, or listen should be necessary. And then chose between Animal Empathy, or setting traps. In the past, I personally find I don't much like traps. And I prefer the fact that Animal Empathy can allow me to more or less solo. At least in the UD. At low levels there is the Bulette, or however it is spelled, and at higher levels there are some other monsters that can get you to 30, nearly on their own. And I like it for PvP too, because they follow non HIPS users into stealth.

Regardless, thanks for at least still taking the time to show me. You have helped me in regards to the future.

User avatar
Jack Oat
Posts: 734
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:46 am
Location: The Slanty Shanty

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by Jack Oat » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:15 am

DarkPerin wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:48 pm
Words
Aight, if you mean that then I'm sorry. I guess I'm a bit jaded when it comes to people on this forum misleading new players and tend to jump a bit early, even when other people don't mean ill.

I tend to agree on the necessity of spot, but a lot of people prefer listen to the point where I just leave it the way it is.

If you ever have build questions or wanna shoot a build idea my way to talk about it, either hit me up on the Arelith 3.0 Discord or add me on Discord: Jack Oat#8269

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


User avatar
Kenji
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 am
Location: Mechanics Dungeon

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by Kenji » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:41 am

Thanks for being civil and precise, guys!

I have made a spreadsheet for the crafting materials and/or spread for the Ashwood Crossbow, and I'll tell ya, it ain't pretty:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1997464876

It boils down to Adaptive Gears (from the templates section) and needing Alchemists and Herbalists to do a lot of the other million little things.

I have yet to calculate crafting points required and whatnot. But there's the spreadsheet for those who are looking to craft the best-ranged weapon available for non-AAs.

Edit: Stats for the different launchers
Ashwood Heavy Crossbow: 1d10, 19-20 x2
AB +4, Mighty +6, Massive Crit 2d10, Dex +2

Ashwood Longbow: 1d8, 20 x3
AB +3, Mighty +4, Massive Crit 2d10, Dex +2

Enchanted Elite Sling: 1d4, 20 x2
AB +4 (+5 for halfling), Mighty +6, Massive Crit 2d10, Dex +2

DarkPerin
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:52 pm

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by DarkPerin » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:28 am

Nope. I totally mean it. I forgot the in and outs of NWN 1. NWN 2 doesn't have disc, or epic BAB progression. I'll have to keep those things in mind from now on, and they'll help a lot. Especially the 58 AC part.


Out of curiosity. Last question about my build difference. Mages tend to be my largest pain. Due to time stop, spellbreach/dispel, and something like a mind spell, or death spell.

What sort of fort save do mages generally have, without adding to their save from spell craft?

Would a 30 DC Fort save be at all decent against them, with death attack?

Either way, I am probably going for your build now, I think. Though maybe one less ranger level, and one more AA, as I don't mind getting my DISC dump at the end, and suffering until then. Unless there is another reason not to. All ears.

User avatar
Jack Oat
Posts: 734
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:46 am
Location: The Slanty Shanty

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by Jack Oat » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:13 am

DarkPerin wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:28 am
Nope. I totally mean it. I forgot the in and outs of NWN 1. NWN 2 doesn't have disc, or epic BAB progression. I'll have to keep those things in mind from now on, and they'll help a lot. Especially the 58 AC part.
That's generally the metric I use for it. Different strokes for different folks, though.
DarkPerin wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:28 am
Out of curiosity. Last question about my build difference. Mages tend to be my largest pain. Due to time stop, spellbreach/dispel, and something like a mind spell, or death spell.

What sort of fort save do mages generally have, without adding to their save from spell craft?
At full optimal gear, 33 base Fortitude. Usually (if done right) about 29-30. Not Fortitude vs. Spells, but just base Fortitude. I'm sure some Mage players are going to correct me and ask what sort of math I'm doing, and the answer is: Optimal Math for gearing. If you want a gear list/build recommendations, shoot me a PM on here or Discord, Mage players.
DarkPerin wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:28 am
Would a 30 DC Fort save be at all decent against them, with death attack?
Probably not, sadly. Depends a lot on the Mage.
DarkPerin wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:28 am
Either way, I am probably going for your build now, I think. Though maybe one less ranger level, and one more AA, as I don't mind getting my DISC dump at the end, and suffering until then. Unless there is another reason not to. All ears.
Yeah I mean you lose 1 BAB pre-epic, but you offset it with your 15 AA while gaining a point of damage. You also lose Woodland Stride and Uncanny Dodge I from Ranger, but you get Uncanny Dodge from Assassin so not that bad. Woodland Stride is good for basic CC spells since it makes you immune to Grease/Web/Entangle.

Overall though, if you want an archer assassin I'd recommend either Ranger 21/Monk 3/Assassin 6 or Ranger 21/Fighter 4/Assassin 5. I don't really care for this sort of split, but wanted to at least make what I thought was a more viable version of it.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


User avatar
Hunter548
Posts: 1869
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:40 am

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by Hunter548 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:04 am

I will say this: Sneak-based archers are usually pretty bad. You throw a good 3-4 points of AB into the dumpster, in exchange for potential heightened damage - but the flip side of that is that you're fairly squishy in melee, and can't sneak with ranged weapons except in near-melee range. Even -assassinate has this problem; the command has a pretty short range, and you almost never want to be that close as an archer. You want to be kiting, or shooting from engine draw distance away.

The old ranger/rogue/aa build had the same problems.
UilliamNebel wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:24 pm
You're right. Participating in the forums was a mistake. Won't do this again.
Anime Sword Fighter wrote: I have seen far too many miniskirt anime slave girls.

StrykerMontgomery
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:14 pm

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:59 pm

I am currently considering the viability of a crossbow using dragon disciple kobold. Some kind if fighter bard dragon disciple split since bane of enemies requires 21 lvl ranger. Bardic song can also slightly help witj partial progressiin bab for the bard lvls as well as providing support for other party members. Can us umd for scrolls to lvl solo at earlier lvls if party members are scarce.

Essentially dragon disciple would help with stat spread and allowing for dex to be absolutely maxed a koboldy as possible without having to sacrifice other things both starting stats and equipment (like con).
Currently played characters:
Have not played for over a year, thinking of returning again

User avatar
Kenji
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 am
Location: Mechanics Dungeon

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by Kenji » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:04 pm

Hello,

I have to consider giving the builds portion of this thread away to someone more competent than me.

I enjoy crafting oriented builds far more than powerbuilds intended for pvp, and will most likely never play any of these builds except for the glass cannon one.

If someone can take over the build portion of this thread, it would be most appreciated.


Besides, I need more post space for the launcher's crafting materials as well as instruction for new players on how to use the bundles/templates, etc! I also offer these crash courses IG if you start your new characters on Skal. :mrgreen:

Send me a pm or go ahead and post a new thread with the build level distribution copied over. I highly suggest redoing any of the currently available links that are done by me as they aren't really optimal. Luck of Heroes can be obtained IG, for all I know, and if these are supposed powerbuilds, they should be able to obtain them, all of those lvl1 feats for humans will have to be redone.

Time for me to move on to something I enjoy more!


I'm just gonna suck it up and continue to do this.

Updating all the posts with spreadsheets so updates are live, discussions and variant paths are encouraged.

StrykerMontgomery
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:14 pm

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:39 pm

I been doing a lot of skim reading. Has 21 rranger/ 8AA been discussed? The 19 AA only get 2 more ab if you dont count bonus dex feats from AA. But 21 ranger, especially with ranger path, would give more damage (assumimg fAvoured enemy, the price of being a niche class with natural environment hips) along with good empathy grabs and solid blade thirst. I suppose lack of umd and tumble would be a bummer. But hey, getting four life back per hit. (And more max hp) the range path alone makes it on par with damage without favoured enemies plus bane bonuses. Though ab will be even lower without bane.
Currently played characters:
Have not played for over a year, thinking of returning again

User avatar
Kenji
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 am
Location: Mechanics Dungeon

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by Kenji » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:06 am

I updated the link to the Ranged Average Damage spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

The TL;DR of it is:
For AA builds, Pally/Bard/AA spread is most likely the most bursty one as well as relatively defensive one available (Wind-up time is necessary, however, buffing Cha and then Divine Might and what not)

Bard/Monk/AA is still the best choice for defensive stats, the uncapped movement speed is great for kiting. The damage output is rather low, however.

Ranger 21 / AA 9 vs low AC creatures have the best dmg output, most skill points, and lenient on feat choices. Very nice for PvE content as ranger also allow access to divine wands. It might be good to use for countering mages in PvP, I'm not sure. There is no wind-up time and you can pretty much just shoot right off the bat.

Ra 5 / Ftr 6 / AA 19 has the best dmg output vs high AC and has just enough skill points and feats for mounted archery (another +2AB, scary!) At the same time, its defensive stats is about the same as Ranger 21 / AA 9, but with no HiPS in natural area. Again, no wind-up time like the pally spread, but no access to UMD, Tumble, no Spellcraft either.

Rangers (23/4/3, 21/6/3, 27/3 should all apply, 27/3 has slightly lower avg dmg) have quite decent dmg vs low AC opponents, decent skill points, animal companion, HiPS when not mounted, great gimmicky build. Slightly more defensive compared to 21Ra/9AA

I have yet to put up the ranger build that goes shuriken with monk dip and gets more APR as well as other builds (zen archery), if someone can provide the stats or double check the ones I have on there, please do let me know.

Folks are also free to interpret the data or double check the parameters. I can only do so much on my own, and I don't have as much meta knowledge of the other long time players here.

StrykerMontgomery
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:14 pm

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:21 pm

is 10 ranger still requires for the highest tier of bundle? That also plays a big factor into which builds might be easier PvE wise. Like the ranger 21/ AA 9 benefits from damask bundles along with good meat shields, and lack of ab can always be later on compensated with a true strike potion (especially since you saved so much money) if you are a 'one in a life time' PvP person and need all those called shots to be made against your arch nemesis.
Currently played characters:
Have not played for over a year, thinking of returning again

User avatar
The Kriv
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 579
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:44 am

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by The Kriv » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:16 pm

StrykerMontgomery wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:21 pm
is 10 ranger still requires for the highest tier of bundle? That also plays a big factor into which builds might be easier PvE wise. Like the ranger 21/ AA 9 benefits from damask bundles along with good meat shields, and lack of ab can always be later on compensated with a true strike potion (especially since you saved so much money) if you are a 'one in a life time' PvP person and need all those called shots to be made against your arch nemesis.

10 Ranger (Archer Path) levels gets you 1 Damask Arrow Bundle creation after a rest.

5 levels of Ranger gets you Steel Arrow Bundles.

The difference between Damask Arrows and Steel Arrows is +3 Piercing damage/+9 Crit vs +2 Piercing Damge/+6 Crit.

Using Steel Arrows, you lose 1 point less damage per hit, and 3 points less on a crit. That's it. That's the difference.

Now, does that extra 1 point / 3 crit points count? mmmm... against DR, yeah it helps bypass damage caps vs. bosses or high-DR foes. Ultimately is it a game-changer? Debatable.

Currently I'm testing this theory. I am working on a Ranger(7)/AA(19)/Fighter(4) build that uses Steele Bundles. So far, I have found the steel bundles plenty adequate, and I am not really missing Damask Bundles very much... but the build is still in progress. I may change my tune later. So far, at ~ lvl 22 of this build, my character is still pretty much a cannon. I have previously played a level 30 Ranger/AA/Fighter where I had 11 Ranger Levels, and Damask Bundles. so I do have a little reference for comparison... so far I am not detecting much difference using Steel instead of Damask.

My theory is the extra 2 levels of AA will grant me the extra damage point I am missing from using Steel over Damask as my previous lvl 30 archer character.. but I will net a +1 AB from it.
-Unit of beauty required to launch one ship = 1 milihelen

User avatar
Kenji
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 am
Location: Mechanics Dungeon

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by Kenji » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:30 am

Howdy Folks,

Updated a few links, here are the builds:
Rogue 24/Fighter 6
Tribal Barb 23/Fighter 4/Rogue 3
Fighter 8/Bard 4/AA 18

Let me know if anyone's got a better option or if I missed something!
The Kriv wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:16 pm
Now, does that extra 1 point / 3 crit points count? mmmm... against DR, yeah it helps bypass damage caps vs. bosses or high-DR foes. Ultimately is it a game-changer? Debatable.

Currently I'm testing this theory. I am working on a Ranger(7)/AA(19)/Fighter(4) build that uses Steele Bundles. So far, I have found the steel bundles plenty adequate, and I am not really missing Damask Bundles very much... but the build is still in progress. I may change my tune later. So far, at ~ lvl 22 of this build, my character is still pretty much a cannon. I have previously played a level 30 Ranger/AA/Fighter where I had 11 Ranger Levels, and Damask Bundles. so I do have a little reference for comparison... so far I am not detecting much difference using Steel instead of Damask.

My theory is the extra 2 levels of AA will grant me the extra damage point I am missing from using Steel over Damask as my previous lvl 30 archer character.. but I will net a +1 AB from it.
At the end of the day, the Ranger bundles are just a QoL thing if your PC isn't a dedicated crafter (frees up the trade skills from carpentry to everything else!). Damask bundles can always be obtained, there are folks (fools) out there who utilize the ranger path for crafting purposes (me) where their (mine) whole RP is based on arming an entire town of ordinary folks rather than doing the dirty job themselves (myself). :mrgreen:

+1AB will always be the better choice over a simple +1 dmg, and in this case, the AA's enhancement counts for dmg, too, damask bundle's utility is simply overshadowed here.

Rangers (Archer path) usually want the following levels:
4: +2 ranged dmg
5: Convert FE into GSF
7: Woodland Stride, Uncanny Dodge
21+: Bane of Enemies

As for Ra7/Ftr4/AA19 instead of Ra5/Ftr6/AA19 though? You gain Woodland Stride, uncanny dodge, and animal companion (for RP purposes) at the cost of one epic feat and one AC. Maybe I'll have a variant build for that!

Edit: I've been trying to come up with a path for R7/F4/AA19, turns out there isn't enough level padding for Ranger5 to convert the FE into GSF. That and Fighter4 taken at lvl30 means an extra epic feat is taken (armor skin removed) in order to fit in both WS and EWS.

Not that +2 AC makes much of a difference for a build that forgoes Tumble, SC, and UMD dump. Woodland Stride does seem like a great feat to have in tandem with any entangle or grease wands. Hard to say!

User avatar
Kenji
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 am
Location: Mechanics Dungeon

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by Kenji » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:01 pm

I came up with a Ranger 21 / Monk 5 / Fighter 4 Shuriken build, with pre-epic Ranger 16 / Monk 4 levels.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I have also done the calculation for the average dmg of the above build vs other builds (Last line):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

The damage rivals that of most AA builds while giving just as decent AC and Saves without the wind-up time. Early levels (until lvl6) will be a nightmare to level, gearing and low str will be a hassle, as well.

The thing is that, like other mundane builds, it can't penetrate DR. IIRC there exists +5 Shuriken drops in the Viper Monastery, however since PCs can't augment those, they're only for bypassing DR purposes and at the same time performs worse than any essenced shurikens.

But it's a promising mundane build that has monk speed, no reliance on sneak attack mechanics, all the while having more than enough utility for lots of fun!

Let me know if the numbers are right or if there are any improvements there can be made.

Question is: Does a monk's uncapped speed apply to when mounted, as well?

Lurch
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:26 am

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by Lurch » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:53 pm

One would think ranger 23 / monk 3 / fighter 4 was better, getting 3/4 ranger levels for turning animals into companions for the price of 1 AC. It gets the same save progression by taking ranger 18 / monk 2 pre-epic.

EDIT: Nvm, this wouldn't max tumble. Either lose save bonuses and wait until level 25 to get shurikens (lol), lose more AC or lose the companion ability of animal empathy.

StrykerMontgomery
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:14 pm

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:46 pm

With new bundles and templates, i think shurikens have gone up in Viability immensely.

Having 21 ranger lvls for example grants plus 6 damage per shuriken

3 for damask.

4 fighter lvl dip can get another 6

So 15 bonus damage without templates or favoured/bane calculated

Templates csn allows spells and essences to finally apply.

I think it should be easy to get 25 to 35 damage per shuriken, especially with favoured enemies.

Lets assume just a flat 30 (shuriken itself is also 1 to 2 damage) and if one is using blinding sleed with rapid shot and monk progression, we are looking at like maybe 8 attscks per round? Just getting four hits off is over a 100 damage. And ab can be very viable as a halfling. Since you get so much out of your first flurry, you can easily do running away with monk speed and quick 3 shots between running.
Currently played characters:
Have not played for over a year, thinking of returning again

User avatar
Kenji
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1496
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 am
Location: Mechanics Dungeon

Re: All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by Kenji » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:04 pm

StrykerMontgomery wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:46 pm
Since you get so much out of your first flurry, you can easily do running away with monk speed and quick 3 shots between running.
Indeed! An important thing to note here is that if a hin is kiting and is hastened already, it's best to turn off Rapid Shot for 2 extra AB seeing that 7 APR still nets 3 attacks on the first flurry before breaking off again, which makes it even better!

No gear on con means a really squishy ranger, though. Maybe squeezing in SF/GSF: Abjuration somewhere is ideal.

Post Reply