All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Discussions related to character builds and mechanics may occur here.

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Kenji3108
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All Things Ranged (Builds, Launchers, Templates)

Post by Kenji3108 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:07 am

Forewords regarding the thread:
Due to the lack of ranged discussion, this thread will focus on the discussion of ranged character builds for all races. Emphasis should be on ranged weaponry (Bows, Crossbows, Slings, and Throwing Weapons) rather than using those to augment melee or spellcasting. (exceptions being the Zen Archery where wisdom will come nicely with Clerics, Druids, and/or Monks)

Keep in mind that while comparison of builds with each other from time to time is welcomed, encouraged even, please don't disrespect or dissuade other players by telling others that their build is trash and why they should play ____ instead. Giving a better build path or class composition is a better and friendlier choice in this matter.


The list may be extended with more once others come up with and discuss more comprehensive builds.

Note: The ones with a red asterisk (*) mean it is either a meme-build or an old build that has likely turned obsolete by an update
Generic Ranged: (Non-AAs for all races, accessible with normal RPR) Arcane Archer: Zen Archery: (Wisdom based builds, better will save, monk dips for AC and UBAB APR, and etc)
  • Cleric 23 / Ranger 4 / Rogue 3 - Available for any race, slings suggested in order to utilize shield slot. Can also go for Cleric 26 / Ranger 4 spread at the cost of UMD and Tumble dump. 27/3 for even higher CL and dispel resist at the cost of 2 damage. Can move rogue levels further higher to get higher Bluff base ranks
  • Cleric 27 / Bard 3 - (Drow or Kobold/Crossbow): No access to Repeater Crossbow due to low dex and unable to meet the prerequisite for Rapid Shot
  • Cleric 24 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 3 - (Drow or Kobold/Crossbow): A variant of Cleric 27 / Bard 3, see its notes on Rapid Shot
  • *Paladin 24 / Monk 3 / Rogue 3 - (Shuriken/Lawful Good Only): Joe's Special
  • *Cleric 23 / Ranger 4 / Monk 3 - (Shuriken/Lawful Only): Jack's Special, Edited, see original
    Note: This build requires a lot of juggling around all different sorts of stats. Not recommended to players in general.
Exotic Ranged: (May require higher RPR, PrC tokens, or unconventional weaponry and builds) Important links:
Ranged Average Damage in different Scenarios
Ashwood Launchers Materials List
Ranger's Favored/Studied Enemies discussion link
Ranger Animal Companion Snapshot (level 24)
Dispel Mechanics

Links, images, and comprehensive level lists will be much appreciated!
Last edited by Kenji3108 on Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:05 am, edited 163 times in total.

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Assembly Template

Post by Kenji3108 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:37 am

General Steps on how to utilize the template:
  1. Get a bundle via Crafting or Archer path
  2. If crafting, you'll need either forging or carpentry for the bundles.
  3. If archer, use the innate ability and get a bundle relative to your ranger's chosen weapon focus.
  4. Acquire an assembly template
  5. It requires at least three different crafting skills for semi-decent ones: Art, Forging, and Herbalism
  6. Apply one or two permanent essences on the template
  7. Apply temporary essence(s) and/or any Arcane/Divine weapon magics
  8. Use the Bundle's targeting special ability on the template
  9. Repeat 1-3 when bundle is depleted by use
  10. Repeat 7-8 when unstable slots are depleted by use
  11. Repeat 4-8 when template is depleted by use (Applicable only to Standard and Advanced templates, Stable ones can be repaired)
Forging, Art Crafting, and Carpentry all qualify to craft the following templates:
Note: Only Forging and Carpentry can repair the repairable templates.

Code: Select all

Templates	Stable	Unst.	Reusability	Raw Material	Gems		Ingots	Gears	 Art Crafting	Herbalism
Basic (DC5)	0	1	Permanent	Softwood	Aventurine	Tin	n/a	 n/a		n/a
Simple (DC15)	1	1	Permanent	Hardwood	Amethyst	Tin	Brass	 2 Vials	n/a
Standard (DC25)	0	3	Consumable	2 Hardwood	Fire Agate	Silver	2 Brass	 3 Vials	n/a
Stable (DC35)	2	1	Repairable	2 Hardwood	Garnet		n/a	2 Brass	 3 Vials	Small Seed Balm
Complex (DC45)	0	4	Consumable	2 Hardwood	Diamond		n/a	Adaptive 4 Vials	n/a
Note: Stable slots are for permanent essences only
Unstable slots are for temporary essences and/or any arcane/divine magics that affect weapons


Tested List of Spells for Unstable Slots (CL stands for overall Character Level, not Caster Level)
  • Darkfire: 1d6 Fire, 1d6 Negative (2d4 if cast below 20 CL)
  • Bless Weapon: 2d6 Divine vs Undead (Pre-20CL), vs Outsiders (Post-20CL), vs Dragon (30CL)
  • Flame Weapon: 1d10 Elemental (Tested 30 CL, element type dependent on -stream)
  • Holy Sword: 1d10 Divine vs Evil
  • Blackstaff: 3 Magical (Tested 30 CL)
  • Deafening Clang: 5 Sonic (2 base + 1 per 10 CL)
  • Greater Magic Weapon: 5 Slashing @ 30 CL (2 base + 1 per 10 CL)
  • Blade Thirst: 1d6 Negative, Vampiric +5 (Tested 30 CL)
  • Keen Edge: 1d6 Slashing, Wounding DC-26 (Tested 30 CL)
Note: Templates with a certain elemental damage types will conflict with spells that attempt to add the same.
Ex: If the template has a Stable Slot with sonic damage, the unstable slot can't take Deafening Clang.
Players are advised to apply slots with elements that are not listed above.
The exception being the Bless Weapon's Divine damage, but damage from a Divine Essence and Bless Weapon will not stack vs Undead, Outsider, or Dragon. The regular essence damage will apply if the types aren't the aforementioned.


Crafting Points Distribution (For Components only):
  • Basic: Forging 3
  • Simple: Forging 8, Herbalism 13, Art crafting 1
  • Standard: Forging 11, Herbalism 13, Art crafting 1
  • Stable: Forging 8, Herbalism 13, Art Crafting 1
  • Complex: Forging 30, Herbalism 13, Art Crafting 19, Alchemy 33
List of Components:

Code: Select all

Forging (11)		Materials			
Brass Gears (DC10)	Flask of Oil	Brass Ingot		
Tin Ingot (DC5)		2 Tin Chunk	4 Coal		
Brass Ingot (DC6)	Copper chunk	Zinc chunk	2 Coal	
Silver Ingot (DC 13)	2 Silver Chunk	4 Coal		

Herbalism (13)				
Flask of Oil (DC15)	2 Harnak Seeds	Glass Vial		
Small Seed Balm (DC10)	3 Strideleaf	6 Nuts	3 Sassone Leaves	6 Yarrow Leaves
				
Art Crafting (1)				
Glass Vial (DC3)	2 Glass	2 Coal		
Glass (DC1)		2 Sand	2 Coal		
Complex Templates Specifics:
Crafting Points Requirement

Code: Select all

Forging (30)
Adaptive Gears (DC32)	2 Brass Gears	Standard Catalyst	Dragon Oil	Emulsified Oil

Carpentry or Herbalism (8)
Charcoal (DC10)		2 Glass Bottle	4 Hardwood	1 Alchemist's Fire
Charcoal is the byproduct of Pine Tar

Alchemist (33)				
Dragon Oil (DC35)	Dragonhide	Dragon Blood	5 Flask of Oil	
Emulsified Oil (DC16)	4 Harnak Seeds	2 Charcoal	1 Iron Chunk	1 Small Seed Balm
Alchemist's Fire (DC10)	Lesser Catalyst	10 Glass Vial	5 Fluorspar
Standard Catalyst(DC22)	Glass Bottle	Silver Ingot	Blood of a Magic Creature	
Lesser Catalyst (DC19)	Glass Bottle	Brass Ingot	Blood of a Magic Creature	

Art Crafting (19)
Glass Bottle (DC2)
Diamond (DC21)
Last edited by Kenji3108 on Fri May 24, 2019 5:14 pm, edited 76 times in total.
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Re: Generic Ranged builds

Post by TimeAdept » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:43 am

The ranger's damage goes down by 4d6+5 if not sneak attacking and not fighting a favored enemy, however, and also does not innately pierce stoneskin or premonition, which the Arcane Archer will be doing all day every day to every target it fights from any range.
Can any of the mundane builds compete with any builds that go into AA 19?
No. The 8 AB and damage piercing alone ensure that, imo, along with the few arrows that are Arcane Archer only in the server.

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Re: Generic Ranged builds

Post by Lurch » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:48 pm

I highly doubt this is a 'generic' build but w/e here goes:

Halfling Monk 6 / Assassin 17 / Blackguard 7

spam those shuriken with your 8 APR (rapid shot, haste), 13d6 sneak attack (ISA +2d6), epic dodge, deflect arrows and monk speediness. 3 chances to paralyze in the first flurry. Just hope they don't have immunity to criticals. Or that you don't lack for shuriken.

The reason for blackguard is getting 16 BAB along with sneak attack class feature to unlock improved sneak attack. You also get summons which I imagine survive for a few seconds.

Don't try getting 13+ str and cha and get divine might in there, strength is wasted on shurikens without mighty property. Consequently, having 6 str only hurts for discipline in this case, as non-mighty shuriken get no penalty to damage from a pathetic strength as halfling. Just pump Dex for AB and int for skills and excess assassinate damage.
Last edited by Lurch on Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Generic Ranged builds

Post by vaclavc » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:35 pm

For the record, clerical archers with Divine might can easily rival AAs, although they are very buff dependent. One of the most feared black archers in Arelith history was cleric/rogue/fighter.

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Re: Generic Ranged builds

Post by Kenji3108 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:15 am

Original Second Post:
Can any of the mundane builds compete with any builds that go into AA 19? Are we all doomed to be elves if we ever want to be a viable dedicated archer build?

If we look at the Ranger 23 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 3 build, the damage output goes as: (arrows/bolts are ignored given that AA can use the same)
Damage is 24~51 = 1d8 +2 (mighty) + 6 (path) +6 (ws/ews) +5 (FE) + 2d6 (Bane) + 2d6 (Sneak)
Damage is 22~39 without sneak attack
Damage is 17~34 without FE
Damage is 15~22 without FE and Sneak Attack
AB is 49 (Calculations given by sad_zav in Archer build for gnome thread)

Compared to, say, Ranger 5 / AA 19 / Fighter 6 (No UMD)
Damage is 21 ~ 28 = 1d8 + 2 (mighty) + 2 (path) + 10 (enhancement) + 6 (ws/ews)
AB is 57 = 25 (lvl29) + 10 (enhancement) + 3 (wf/ewf) + 1 (prowess) + 15 (dex, elf) + 3 weapon

Edit: Supposedly Best AA build - Monk 6 / Bard 5 / AA 19
Damage is 13 ~ 20 = 1d8 + 2 (mighty) + 10 (enhancement)
AB is 54

Keep in mind that sneak doesn't always proc, along with the AB itself and enhancement level of 10 (bypassing stone skin, etc). Also discounting AA ranger's FE damage bonus seeing as there are only 2 types, almost inapplicable everywhere else compared to the dedicated Ranger's wide array of FEs.

How does one interpret the statistics? Provided they are correct. Is AA better for PvP because of higher AB and RangerFighterRogue better for PvE due to the sheer damage output?
Lurch wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:48 pm
Halfling Monk 6 / Assassin 17 / Blackguard 7 - Shuriken
No, sir, it is far from generic. But it's an actual Ninja build! I will dedicate an entirely different section to these 'exotic' builds. Can you come up with an image or level path for it? Also, feel free to name the build. I'll call it "The Ninja" build until you come up with a better name. I imagine such character will be visiting the Viper Monastery a lot to farm the shurikens.
vaclavc wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:35 pm
For the record, clerical archers with Divine might can easily rival AAs, although they are very buff dependent. One of the most feared black archers in Arelith history was cleric/rogue/fighter.
Can you provide more details on such build? I imagine it's Cleric23/Rogue3/Fighter4 with Zen Archery feat. Any niche to look out for? Which race is best for the build? What launcher does the build use?
TimeAdept wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:43 am
No. The 8 AB and damage piercing alone ensure that, imo, along with the few arrows that are Arcane Archer only in the server.
The few arrows that only AA can use can be circumvented with UMD (Make sure you split the arrows into different amount so it 'lowers' the UMD requirement)

However, seeing that ranged builds generally have lower AC than most (save for some zen archery builds with monk dips and AC feats), would you say that when it comes down to the Ranger build vs AA build, Ranger would be the counter to such AA builds on the battlefield? Keep in mind that dedicated rangers have HiPS while in natural areas as well as covering almost but all player races (save for gnomes on the list), so the FE would definitely apply.
Last edited by Kenji3108 on Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by TimeAdept » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:26 am

Blackguard won't count for Improved Sneak Attack. Take Fighter instead for more feats.

The unique AA only arrows require OOC 55-60 UMD. Having a smaller stack doesn't circumvent that script.

AA gets spot - I would not say ranger counters AA. An AA's higher AB means they can spam Called Shot Arm on their opponent and render their AB quickly useless. Not to mention an AA can make use of DR, and the opposing Ranger could not.

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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by Lurch » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:18 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:26 am
Blackguard won't count for Improved Sneak Attack. Take Fighter instead for more feats.
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Improved_sneak_attack seems to suggest that it does count. It could be mistaken though.

Assuming it counts, here's how I would see the original build (which you might call 'midget ninja' if you need a name for it):

pre-epic:
monk 6 / assassin 8 / blackguard 6
epic:
9 assassin / 1 blackguard

stats:
6 strength
19 -> 26 dexterity - (gift)
14 constitution
18 intelligence - (gift)
14 wisdom
8 charisma

skills:
discipline, hide, move silently, tumble, UMD + 3 skills of choice (search/open lock/disable trap/bluff/listen/spot/pick pocket)

feats (pre-epic):
toughness
blind-fight
weapon focus: shuriken
point-blank shot
rapid shot
called shot
weapon finesse (for when you want to conserve ammunition, maybe you'll even be able to use improved knockdown some times)

epic:

epic skill focus: discipline
epic weapon focus: shuriken
blinding speed (our invisibility spell gives +50% speed at assassin lvl 15, but not additional attack like this does, I hope they stack with monk speed for a total of +120% movement speed)
improved sneak attack I (so 12d6 in total, regrettably)
epic dodge (pre-requisites come from epic assassin)

The reason I went with halfling was to get small stature and good aim for +1 AC and +2 AB with throwing weapons along with better stealth, however there's nothing wrong with taking some other race for it.

Reason for not going 5/18/7 build for an additional epic assassin feat as well as +2 maximum assassinate damage was so that one can maximize discipline with final blackguard level.

Improved critical was purposefully left out as the basic damage for which it applies is inconsequential compared to 42 average damage from death attacks and 21-25 magical damage from assassinate, depending on the intelligence bonus.



For a more generic version not requiring PRCs or evil alignment, one can also try Rogue 21 / Monk 3 / Fighter 6
(rogue 12 / monk 3 / fighter 5 pre-epic)

stats:
6 str
22 -> 30 dex
14 con
16 int
10 wis
8 cha

Same pre-epic feats, plus weapon specialization, improved critical (now with fighter, it starts to matter), 2 left overs for luck of heroes/great fortitude or what have you, as rogue gives free weapon finesse. Crippling strike would be very nice, except it doesn't work with ranged weapons. Instead pick improved evasion.

In epic levels you grab epic weapon and discipline foci, blinding speed (which is on a shorter cooldown due to rogue) and great dexterity I from general feats
defensive roll, epic dodge and improved sneak attack I from rogue feats
epic weapon specialization from fighter

This more generic build is more durable with rogue hit-dice, has +2 AB, 31 more skillpoints, better saves and does some damage against crit immune foes with weapon specialization

It lacks death attack paralyzation, defense and utility from assassin spells, blackguard summons to draw aggro and the huge magical damage bonus from assassinate.
Last edited by Lurch on Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by TimeAdept » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:30 am

It counts, but the two classes don't stack for the sake of selecting the feat. You need Sneak attack OR BG Sneak Attack OR Assn Death Attack to reach the required threshhold, you can't combine features.

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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by Lurch » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:44 am

Ah, I see. Then it means we cannot use the lvl 14 assassin bonus feat for anything meaningful, as we only have 7d6 SA from the class at that point. Except great dexterity, though it would mean changes for the build.

something like this: fighter 7 / monk 3 / assassin 10 (pre-epic)
finish up as fighter 8 / monk 3 / assassin 19

stats:
6 str
20 -> 28 dex
14 con
18 int
12 wis
8 cha

Trades pathetic summons and 1d6 sneak attack for +6 all around damage from epic weapon specialization, improved critical, better death attack DC, +1 AB, +2-3 assassinate damage and +1 custom poison DC, along with spare pre-epic feats. Not a bad deal at all.

EDIT: Quick note, has to start out as a fighter in order to qualify for assassin skill prerequisites, means 12 less skill points, totalling 280. With 30 tumble and 20ish UMD, that leaves roughly 7 other skills to be maxed out.
Last edited by Lurch on Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by Kenji3108 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:13 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:26 am
The unique AA only arrows require OOC 55-60 UMD. Having a smaller stack doesn't circumvent that script.
Any very powerful specific AA arrows in mind that might require such high UMD? I have this set of prismatic arrows (1d4 Acid, Cold, Electrical, Fire, and Sonic damage, 5d4 extra elemental damage in total) that my character can use with 15 effective UMD and upon splitting them, the lone arrow shows a requirement of 1 UMD required and the 19 arrows show a requirement of 5 UMD. Unless the IG examine of UMD required is not correct, I can still use a few AA arrows I have acquired, somehow.
TimeAdept wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:26 am
AA gets spot - I would not say ranger counters AA. An AA's higher AB means they can spam Called Shot Arm on their opponent and render their AB quickly useless. Not to mention an AA can make use of DR, and the opposing Ranger could not.
Seeing that AAs are superior in every way that a mundane archer can do, I feel that the mundane builds are easily sidelined to somewhere having to utilize other in-game utilities to make them more desirable other than for RP purposes. Dedicated Rangers get more skill points and can make high-end bundle of arrows, but at the core of it, it doesn't even begin to rival with AA. Maybe only when compared to raw damage output (if applicable), but even then the simple mechanics of passive enhancement bonus just simply outshines every other class without being too buff reliant.

Any suggestions on what can be done about this? I myself actually don't mind about dedicating into ranged builds that are bound to be inferior to AAs, but it is bound to make some folks disheartened about AAs and their limitation to elves-only. The lack of ranged builds already speak volume, and I don't think nerfing AA is the way to go, here, either.
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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by Lurch » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:22 pm

It occurs to me that one could make a slight alteration to the midget ninja by taking ranger (sniper) instead of fighter.

lvl 20: sniper 6 / monk 4 / assassin 10
lvl 30: sniper 7 / monk 4 / assassin 19

Essentially this trades 4 points of damage from epic weapon specialization for 42 skill points, part of which can be directed to animal empathy, netting you a buddy that you can buff up with UMD and your assassin improved invisibility. While 4 damage is a lot, remember that you can get 11d6 death attack (with 1 epic feat) for 38.5 precision damage and 23-28 magic damage from assassinate. With 8 APR, getting flanking on the regular from a beast buddy is a considerable benefit.

The second favored enemy feat can be substituted for greater spell focus: transmutation for teleport, or enchantment for better enchanting.

Thematically it could be an anti-theist ranger, as you don't need or even want to be casting anything from your spellbook. Consider teleporting a part of your powers as an epic assassin.

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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by Kenji3108 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:35 am

Took me a few hours to compile the notes, but here is the list for the Fighter8/Monk3/Assassin19, check to see if anything is amiss or can be improved.
https://i.imgur.com/3fgiLyb.png

I am liking that GSF: Transmutation from Ranger5 more and more. The teleport alone makes for great RP opportunity, made even better if one can somehow create an artificial smokescreen IG! (I know about the level 12 rogue Smoke Screen, but is there another way to create such "smoke screen" without it actually doing anything?)

Too bad deflect arrows from Monk 2 won't work with Shuriken because it is a ranged weapon. Or does it? I didn't find any change notes regarding Deflect Arrow in Arelith.

Does anyone know if GSF: Transmutation's +1 on Zoo spells work for scrolls and/or wands? This will be a nice bonus to UMD Zoo stuffs.
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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by In A Motionless Scene » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:47 am

Kenji3108 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:35 am
Does anyone know if GSF: Transmutation's +1 on Zoo spells work for scrolls and/or wands? This will be a nice bonus to UMD Zoo stuffs.
Yes

Does
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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by Lurch » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:59 am

The build notes look good, except I would add weapon finesse at 18th level as it's currently not taken, and it will help with conserving ammo if you can actually hit anything with a kama.

Additionally, assassin epic bonus feats do not qualify for epic prowess, so you can't take that at level 24. Instead take great dexterity then, which leaves a spot open for epic dodge (you don't get that for free).

The wording on deflect arrows is a bit unclear, whether ranged weapons also includes throwing weapons (all of which can use a shield, so they should have a free offhand to deflect arrows with). NWN descriptions have an unfortunate tendency to forget their existence.

EDIT: With regards to the ranger variant, Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration is also noteworthy in PvP for IGMS immunity, assuming you can spam shield spell from an item. Also grants marginally better dispelling. Also if maxing animal empathy is not a priority, the variant can take 5th level in monk in epics, as opposed to 7th level in ranger, to get +1 AC

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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by Lurch » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:19 am

And just to toot my own horn a little more, I should link the paladin variant of arcane archer in this thread as well:

Bard 5 / Paladin 6 / Arcane Archer 19
(4 / 6 / 10 pre-epic)

wild elf (dex and int gifts)

stats: 14 / 18-26 / 14 / 14 / 8 / 14

skills: discipline, spellcraft, tumble, umd, spot, listen

pre-epic feats: toughness (free), point-blank shot, power attack, divine might, weapon focus: longbow, rapid shot, called shot, improved critical: longbow
epic: epic weapon focus: longbow, epic skill focus: discipline, blind-fight, blinding speed, great dexterity I, epic prowess

Instead of monk speed and evasion, you gain better fortitude saves with divine grace and burst damage with divine might, along with 2 more BAB. You also get to wear armors.

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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by Kenji3108 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:22 am

Here are some updates: (I renamed the original LE Midget Ninja to Shinobi, I'll reserve the ninja one for a more flashy, mundane one)
Glass Cannon - https://i.imgur.com/2SCp1MU.png
Ranger into AA - https://i.imgur.com/Bw8e748.png (This one's better off going into Rogue for UMD and evasion, but I also wanted a brainless 1-click build out there, maybe I'll change it to rogue/bard instead of fighter one day)
Shinobi - https://i.imgur.com/fjogVkP.png
Variant - https://i.imgur.com/HMTv7by.png

For the variant one, I figured why not go for Monk 6 instead of Ranger 6, seeing that monk 6 also provides 20% movement boost instead of 10%, and both can serve as discipline dump.

I'll work on the paladin/AA one. In the meanwhile, can someone give me suggestions on a flashy ninja build? The idea is to take Ranger 5 to convert FE to GSF: Transmutation for teleport, Rogue 12 to use smokescreen, and monk levels for shuriken.
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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by Lurch » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:37 am

Archer 5 / Rogue 21 / Monk 4 seems the most logical choice, being 4 / 12 / 4 pre epic for optimal saves and 16 BAB. Pick fifth archer level at 30 to max animal empathy, discipline and pick up GSF.

EDIT: A note to the shinobi build, it shouldn't take improved sneak attack at all since it doesn't work without rogue or blackguard sneak attack. That's one argument for going back to the earlier blackguard build, or just dropping one APR by taking rogue:

Rogue 7 / Assassin 19 / Monk 4

15d6 death attack with epic discipline and shuriken focus, blinding speed, epic dodge, great dex I and Improved SA I. For crit immune foes you'd at least have assassinate

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Kenji3108
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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by Kenji3108 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:52 am

Makes sense, I also read the note carefully on the wiki page. I wonder if it is intended or if it will be fixed in EE eventually. I might have to make a post in BD forums to ask.

For now, any other suggestion on what bonus epic feat to take for Assassin 18, then? Maybe drop Dex from 18 to 17 and raise Wis from 12 to 14 and use the epic feat slot for Great Dex II.

As for Archer 5/Rogue 21/Monk 4, that is a lot of levels to cover before taking the last ranger level for GSF: Transmutation (no -teleport until lvl30, Ouch). I'll put this on as an optimized path for the build, but any other way to take the fifth ranger level earlier? Maybe sacrifice 1d6 sneak attack and 1bab for monk 5 and +1 AC? Edit: I don't think it loses 1 BAB
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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by Lurch » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:24 pm

Great Dex II seems like the obvious choice for an assassin without rogue or blackguard.

For the ranger, take 5 archer and 3 monk pre-epic instead of 4/4, ending up with a 6/21/3 build that still gets 33 ranks in animal empathy if desired. That way you get teleport at level 21, +2 HP, animal companion (one that instantly melts in combat, mind you) and +2 skill points for the price of -1 to all saves.

EDIT: Again, it's debatable whether spell focus and animal empathy can compete with extra +4 damage that a 6/21/3 fighter/rogue/monk gives you that works vs. crit immune foes, especially with the rogue lacking the assassinate ability.

EDIT x2: The Ranger/Monk/Assassin you posted lacks 16 BAB on account of taking 5 monk and 10 assassin pre-epic, I strongly advise against that. Monk 6 is not necessary given that knockdown won't even work with ranged weapons. Losing 10% speed is regrettable, though tiny by comparison.

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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by Kenji3108 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:39 am

The Shinobi builds are updated. You're right about the variant one, Lurch, since 1 BAB = Epic Prowess feat [Edit as indicated by Lurch: 15 BAB loses 1 APR by not going into 16 BAB], the monk 20% movement speed is a worse trade-off in that sense.
Regular: https://i.imgur.com/kyJtaeJ.png
Variant: https://i.imgur.com/MtbfF2n.png

Here is also the path for flashy halfling ninja build:
Early Access Ninja: https://i.imgur.com/UXfU9vC.png -Loses 1 BAB +1 on all saves for earlier -teleport access and animal companion
Optimal Ninja: https://i.imgur.com/RdOOCxl.png

The paladin/AA/bard rough draft:
https://i.imgur.com/5RPdwRu.png
Got a name for it?

Last but not least, the second post of this thread has been replaced with a compilation of my posts regarding the Assembly Template from the feedback thread. Since all ranged can benefit from bundles and templates with the new update, I feel it is fitting that I put the assembly templates here. I have also missed the materials required for Emulsified Oil in the feedback section, and have added all the subsequent materials in the post.
Last edited by Kenji3108 on Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by Lurch » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:35 am

It's not just a matter of 1 AB, as 15 -> 16 BAB gives you your 6th attack with monk UBAB, being the difference of getting 7 or 8 attacks per round with rapid shot and haste active. Notably 16 BAB gives 7 attacks (3 attacks in the first flurry) without having to resort to haste in order to get 3 sneak attacks out of stealth.

Also, the early access ninja doesn't lose any BAB compared to the optimized one, recall that ranger gets full BAB from its levels. 5/3/12 or 4/4/12 makes no difference in that sense.

As for the paladin, no name in mind at the moment. Its worth considering that a fighter would probably be a better offensive choice for +6 all around damage than divine might with 14 base charisma, getting 5 more pre-epic feats for the cost of one epic feat, after counting both power attack & divine might on one side and weapon specialization feats on the other.

Fighter however gets less tumble and spellcraft (no bard level in epic, spot taken by fighter to pick epic weapon specialization), yet higher dexterity for not needing 13+ strength and charisma.

All in all, I put this one up for preference. Better saves, or more feats and sustainable damage.

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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by Kenji3108 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:41 am

Thanks for the detailed replies, I am learning more with every post! Edited the previous post in case someone bothers reading through them.

For the ninja build, I had 5/5/20 as an earlier template before changing it to the suggested 5/4/21 instead. The monk 4 -> 5 losing 1 BAB must've gotten stuck in my head for some reason.

Here's the draft for the Fighter/Bard/AA
https://i.imgur.com/dFkaB83.png - Edit: fixed some of the feats
At least this one doesn't require LG as the alignment

Also fixed a typo on the paladin/AA image.
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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by The Kriv » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:15 pm

Regarding DR, as I understand it, a ranger with 5 FE's meets the +5 requirement to bypass DR vs those 5 FE's

Yes AA is overcoming DR on every shot, but high Ranger investment does grant some DR relief as well.
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Re: All Things Ranged builds

Post by sad_zav » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:55 pm

The Kriv wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:15 pm
Regarding DR, as I understand it, a ranger with 5 FE's meets the +5 requirement to bypass DR vs those 5 FE's

Yes AA is overcoming DR on every shot, but high Ranger investment does grant some DR relief as well.
this is incorrect. think of bonus ranger damage to be akin to weapon specs. it's just flat damage, not an enhancement bonus (AA -is- an enhancement bonus).
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Formerly played Mel Aran, Antoine Moreau, and Zanril.

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