Unarmed Monk - Is Rogue Required?

Discussions related to character builds and mechanics may occur here.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

Post Reply
User avatar
Caiden
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:17 pm

Unarmed Monk - Is Rogue Required?

Post by Caiden » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:52 pm

Hello, again!

I'm leaning toward a 20 Monk / X build. I've seen the cookie cutter ones, but they're very stealth focused.
The character concept I have is more along the lines of... Kharazim from Diablo, or Armstrong from FMA.

Strength monks are the worst, but is there a way to not have a sneak-attack boosted monk that works well?

Monk/Fighter maybe? I'm not sure if Epic Weapon Spec makes up for the loss of Sneak Attack from Rogue.
"I call myself a peaceful warrior, for the battles I fight are on the inside."

User avatar
sad_zav
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 6:53 am

Re: Unarmed Monk - Is Rogue Required?

Post by sad_zav » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:35 pm

So whichever way you spin it, you gotta make some trade offs.

16/10/4 gets edodge and weapon specs, but loses monk 20 bonuses.

20/6/4 or 21/6/3 gets an extra apr and monk 20 bonuses and weapon specs, but loses edodge.

20/10 gets 20 monk bonuses and edodge, but no weapon specs.
Currently plays Peregrine Gwil and Rick Snyder.

Formerly played Mel Aran, Antoine Moreau, and Zanril.

User avatar
msterswrdsmn
Posts: 1314
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:33 pm

Re: Unarmed Monk - Is Rogue Required?

Post by msterswrdsmn » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:11 pm

You need 25 DEX for E-dodge; if you're going STR based, don't plan on getting that. I really have only one "good" unarmed STR monk build in mind

Monk/Dwarven Defender: Your lower AC will be partially mitigated by being able to soak up damage. If you can figure out how to split your stats, you can probably pick up epic damage reduction to mitigate damage even further. All three sources of damage reduction will stack on top of each other, potentially allowing you to ignore the first 35 points of damage. Realistically, you'll be ignoring the first 15 points, as monk DR is easy to penetrate.

I can't really think of any other combinations you'd be interested, sadly. Paladin, blackguard, and CoT (if you want to use divine wrath) need CHA, and you're splitting your stats way too much at that point. You didn't want a rogue/assassin, bard isn't really going to help you outside of skilldumping, and ranger requires a lot of levels to be effective for an unarmed build.

You COULD make a STR based monk/assassin or monk/rogue and focus on dealing as much damage as fast as possible. Theres nothing saying "THOU SHALL HAVE STEALTH" with those classes, though you'd take a hit to your BAB with a 20/10 build. Just rely on knockdown or flanking enemies in a party, or popping out of invisiblity with potions/wands/etc if either of those fail. And even if all of those fail, you'll still be able to deal reasonable damage as a STR based character; your main weakness is poor AC, and you can only cover that with a strong offense for so long.

User avatar
Caiden
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:17 pm

Re: Unarmed Monk - Is Rogue Required?

Post by Caiden » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:24 pm

Hmm, interesting points.

Do you think the damage bonus from the loss of Epic Dodge is worth it?
Monks already have pretty solid AC, plus concealment.
"I call myself a peaceful warrior, for the battles I fight are on the inside."

User avatar
msterswrdsmn
Posts: 1314
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:33 pm

Re: Unarmed Monk - Is Rogue Required?

Post by msterswrdsmn » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:31 pm

From my experience? How valuable epic dodge is depends entirely on what you're fighting.

Going against AA archers with like 55 AB? Especially when combined with a monk with deflect arrows? Super helpful.

Going against epic spawn/player X with 4 attacks per round? Depends entirely on how high my AC is vs their AB.

Going against an even faster character with a high AB throwing 9-10 attacks per round? Not helpful unless my AC is already high enough to reliably dodge.

Going against an entire mob of high AB creatures? No, you're about to get stomped.

Epic dodge was most helpful in a one vs one setting, where I was able to avoid at least one attack per round. Usually the highest AB attack, which forced them to make knockdown attempts with a significatly lower chance of success (-5 AB, plus the knockdown AB penalty). Still, how effective this was depended entirely on who i was fighting: if their AB was high enough that they could still plow right over me with their second, third, and fourth attacks? E-dodge just delayed the inevitable.

It also helps when your AC is so high, the only way something can hit you is with a natural 20. This pretty much turns their chance of hitting you from 5% to almost not at all

User avatar
Opustus
Posts: 817
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:07 pm

Re: Unarmed Monk - Is Rogue Required?

Post by Opustus » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:46 pm

I love STR monk, but monk is just super good with rogue as DEX.

Some of my favourite unarmed STR-monks are

for DwD: Monk20/Fighter5/DwD5 or Monk20/Fighter4/DwD6 or Monk21/Fighter4/DwD5

for pure gimmick: Monk16/Fighter4/Cleric10 or Monk16/Fighter5/Cleric9 or Monk15/Rogue3/Cleric12 or Monk12/Clerk15/Rogue3

(low level of Cleric with Strength and Trickery domains gets a good amount of Divine powers for good short-time buffs, good duration minor buffs, can go healer for long Bless, can use Improved invis wands made by other Trickery clerics; awfully susceptible to dispel!)

simple: Monk21/Fighter6/RogueorAssassin3

Ranger level 7 gets uncanny dodge, but you'd be hard pressed to go dualwield kama or quarterstaff with that, and then it'd be worthwhile to go with something like Ranger10/Monk15/Fighter5 with Ranger9/Monk8/Fighter3 as pre-epic. And then you'd be hard pressed to go Ranger23/Monk3/Fighter4 and so on.
Characters: all poor babies suffering from neglect

User avatar
Caiden
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:17 pm

Re: Unarmed Monk - Is Rogue Required?

Post by Caiden » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:37 pm

msterswrdsmn wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:31 pm
From my experience? How valuable epic dodge is depends entirely on what you're fighting.

Going against AA archers with like 55 AB? Especially when combined with a monk with deflect arrows? Super helpful.

Going against epic spawn/player X with 4 attacks per round? Depends entirely on how high my AC is vs their AB.

Going against an even faster character with a high AB throwing 9-10 attacks per round? Not helpful unless my AC is already high enough to reliably dodge.

Going against an entire mob of high AB creatures? No, you're about to get stomped.

Epic dodge was most helpful in a one vs one setting, where I was able to avoid at least one attack per round. Usually the highest AB attack, which forced them to make knockdown attempts with a significatly lower chance of success (-5 AB, plus the knockdown AB penalty). Still, how effective this was depended entirely on who i was fighting: if their AB was high enough that they could still plow right over me with their second, third, and fourth attacks? E-dodge just delayed the inevitable.

It also helps when your AC is so high, the only way something can hit you is with a natural 20. This pretty much turns their chance of hitting you from 5% to almost not at all
That was quite helpful, thank you!
"I call myself a peaceful warrior, for the battles I fight are on the inside."

User avatar
Caiden
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:17 pm

Re: Unarmed Monk - Is Rogue Required?

Post by Caiden » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:38 pm

Opustus wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:46 pm
I love STR monk, but monk is just super good with rogue as DEX.

Some of my favourite unarmed STR-monks are

for DwD: Monk20/Fighter5/DwD5 or Monk20/Fighter4/DwD6 or Monk21/Fighter4/DwD5

for pure gimmick: Monk16/Fighter4/Cleric10 or Monk16/Fighter5/Cleric9 or Monk15/Rogue3/Cleric12 or Monk12/Clerk15/Rogue3

(low level of Cleric with Strength and Trickery domains gets a good amount of Divine powers for good short-time buffs, good duration minor buffs, can go healer for long Bless, can use Improved invis wands made by other Trickery clerics; awfully susceptible to dispel!)

simple: Monk21/Fighter6/RogueorAssassin3

Ranger level 7 gets uncanny dodge, but you'd be hard pressed to go dualwield kama or quarterstaff with that, and then it'd be worthwhile to go with something like Ranger10/Monk15/Fighter5 with Ranger9/Monk8/Fighter3 as pre-epic. And then you'd be hard pressed to go Ranger23/Monk3/Fighter4 and so on.
Thanks for the response! It gives me some ideas to toy around with.

I'm thinking of risking the loss of Epic Dodge for more fighter levels.
So 20 Monk, 6 Fighter, 4 Rogue. A little more damage for the loss of ED.
Or 21 Monk, 6 FIghter, 3 Rogue. Or 20 Monk, 7 Fighter, 3 Rogue.
The very minimum of 5d6 Sneak Attack from 10 Rogue would be more than Epic Weapon Spec, but that's only when flanking or against a flat-footed target.

I feel like the Epic Weapon Spec may be more reliable? Especially in duels.
"I call myself a peaceful warrior, for the battles I fight are on the inside."

Mortael
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:57 pm

Re: Unarmed Monk - Is Rogue Required?

Post by Mortael » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:06 pm

21 Monk/4 Fighter/5 Shadowdancer is also nice.

/w Epic Dodge and maybe blinding speed. (The latter is not essential.) This build is almost untouchable. You've got the speed, the uncanny dodge, the skills and if you're dex based, got a nice balance between AB/AC. The only thing that will suffer is damage.


You'll need to throw some points into Intelligence to grab imp expertise as well.


In RP terms, this would be the Shadow Monk ;)

TimeAdept
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Unarmed Monk - Is Rogue Required?

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:23 pm

That build does lose UMD, though.

User avatar
Caiden
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:17 pm

Re: Unarmed Monk - Is Rogue Required?

Post by Caiden » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:26 pm

Mortael wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:06 pm
21 Monk/4 Fighter/5 Shadowdancer is also nice.

/w Epic Dodge and maybe blinding speed. (The latter is not essential.) This build is almost untouchable. You've got the speed, the uncanny dodge, the skills and if you're dex based, got a nice balance between AB/AC. The only thing that will suffer is damage.


You'll need to throw some points into Intelligence to grab imp expertise as well.


In RP terms, this would be the Shadow Monk ;)
The build sounds fun, but Shadow Dancer won't really work ICly for him.

Currently juggling 16 Monk / Fighter / 10 Rogue for Epic Dodge AND Epic Weapon Spec at the loss of Perfect Self.
"I call myself a peaceful warrior, for the battles I fight are on the inside."

User avatar
Opustus
Posts: 817
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:07 pm

Re: Unarmed Monk - Is Rogue Required?

Post by Opustus » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:53 pm

That's one of the cookiecutters along with plain 20/10! Verra strong. The Monk16/Fighter4/Rogue10 as in it to dualwield, too, which is better but you can manage with fists just beautifully.
Characters: all poor babies suffering from neglect

User avatar
Caiden
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:17 pm

Re: Unarmed Monk - Is Rogue Required?

Post by Caiden » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:58 pm

I don't suppose it's possible to get the full six attacks AND Epic Weapon Specialization with 16 Monk / 4 Fighter / 10 Rogue?
Since you need four fighter pre-epic.
"I call myself a peaceful warrior, for the battles I fight are on the inside."

yellowcateyes
Project Lead
Project Lead
Posts: 1445
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:02 am

Re: Unarmed Monk - Is Rogue Required?

Post by yellowcateyes » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:00 pm

Not possible unless you add in another Fighter level. With 4 fighter levels and the other classes being 3/4th BAB, your have to choose between full APR and Epic Weapon Spec.
Dinosaur Space Program is my working partner on Arelith-related projects. If my inbox is full or I take a while to get back to you, feel free to PM them questions or concerns.

StrykerMontgomery
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:14 pm

Re: Unarmed Monk - Is Rogue Required?

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:19 am

the cookie butter build is trying to produce stat blocks that cane compete with other cookie cuter builds (like human scimitar weapon masters) in both PvE and PvP

You have to understand that those scimitar warriors are going around with like 50 ac and 50 attack bonus when they are done right. Meaning if you don't have an ac significantly higher than their's.. they will be chopping you up like nothing in a straight on fight while doing PvE better than you.

I play a strength based monk with no rogue. But he is also a Kensai so UMD is out of the question. (you also don't have the option to play a kensai. If you really wanted to do a strength based build, I could try to help you with that. There is a famous monk on the server that is a dex and wisdom based.. which is terrible one paper for so many reasons but is awesome RP wise with immense speed and stunning fist and quivering palm DCs, can still use tools and creativity to overcome situations.

If you are going to be dex based, which is highly recommended, you don't want to waste an opportunity to get epic dodge. HOWEVER! if you wanted to go dex based without rogue lvls as a monk, you can always go the unexpected PURE monk. (although having stealth is still a useful tool with your immense speed and corner sneaking.. but you can always just use invisibility potions etc for niche situations).

Pure monk is well.. lack in a lot of ways.. not extra attacks and damage from fighter, no epic dodge or sneak damage etc. However you will have a spell resistance that can slap all those non-pure caster (which all the cookie cutter builds recommend) in the face hard (especially if you take improved spell resistance a couple times) while sporting a really hardy ac (putting wisdom and dex on all your items, having enchanted fine silk shirt, adamantine helm, maxed tumble, plus 6 ac from 30 monk lvls, etc).

You will also being lacking uncanny dodge that shadow dancer and rogue provides which means your flat foot ac when not engaged in combat which will be terrible. (honestly I wish DnD would let me make a barbarian monk sometimes lol).

For extra kicks and giggles, you can hugely invest into parry (terrible idea for various reasons, but somewhat viable) and be the best body guard ever as you agro all monsters to overcome your insane parry + ac (can only parry 1 attack per flurry) dodging, and deflect all manner of attacks and spells.
Currently played characters:
Have not played for over a year, thinking of returning again

Post Reply