Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

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Lurch
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Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

Post by Lurch » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:36 pm

Here's a silly build:

Wood Elf Sniper 4 / Paladin 8 / Arcane Archer 18

16 strength
8 dexterity
12 constitution
12 intelligence
17 -> 28 wisdom (Gift -> paladin increase + levels + feats)
16 charisma (Gift)

Animal Empathy, Discipline, Ride, Spot, Tumble (cross-class)

Get zen archery for wisdom AB (too bad it doesn't work for your special abilities, oh well).
Power attack -> Divine might (1.5x cha modifier for 2-handed weapon damage, which longbows are).
Mounted archery + called shots to legs -> kiting with our trusty mount.
Animal empathy for an extra body between us and enemies.
We're pretty good at detecting evil too.

Wood elf gets more strength and free weapon focus: longbow.
4 Sniper gets us point blank shot + rapid shot + 2 ranged damage.
8 Paladin gives us access to full plate (slap a robe on top for deviousness), charisma saves, divine feats, summon mount, wisdom increase and 1-2nd level spells -> bless, divine favor, bulls strength + mighty longbow, eagle's splendor, aura of glory, means more damage.
18 Arcane Archer gives +9 enchantment bonus and 2 bonus epic feats, epic weapon focus and prowess.
rest of the epic feats can go epic skill focus: discipline and great wisdom III.

No UMD but one can't have everything...

EDIT: if we start out as a paladin and pick spell focus: transmutation once we have 1st lvl spells, we can take greater spell focus: transmutation as our ranger bonus feat, instead of crappy favored enemy, and get teleportation once we reach epic levels. Also get +1 on bull's strength and eagle's splendor. Alternatively we could take divination foci for better detect evil. Or we could go for enchanting. We'd lose 12 skillpoints with this, and feats are getting really scarce, however.


Comments, Critiques?

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Kenji
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Re: Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

Post by Kenji » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:24 pm

If you take Paladin lvl1, you won't be able to take Sniper path, essentially losing +2 ranged damage and both point blank shot and rapid shot as bonus feats from the path in order to convert one favored enemy feat and maybe use one less level for ranger (ranger 3 instead of 4). Unless you don't plan on taking the aforementioned feats (which at high level when you kite with mounted archery, it doesn't matter once you reach 4 APR), early game will be quite a hassle.

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WanderingPoet
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Re: Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

Post by WanderingPoet » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:01 am

You wouldn't have the damage boost of Arcane Archer, but if you went Sniper/cleric

5 Sniper/25 Cleric would get you level 9 spells which means an ancient elemental to protect you and enough feats to get divine might, and most of the bow feats. 5 Ranger would give you access to a bonus feat in epics as well as maxing out ranger skills.

You could entirely skip on dex because Sniper gives you PBA/Rapid Shot, and then your Zen Archery wisdom also buffs your spell DCs meaning you can do more. Access to Eagle's Splendor/Owl's Wisdom (empowered?) to boost damage/AB as well. Also means you don't need paladin as your cleric levels would give access to Divine Might.
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Ioria92
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Re: Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

Post by Ioria92 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:08 am

Remember that summon mount is disabled.

Crackle
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Re: Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

Post by Crackle » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:12 am

Have a look at 15 paladin 4bard 11aa
My only problem with this build is it would be a complete nightmare to level

Lurch
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Re: Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

Post by Lurch » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:16 pm

Based on the comments, I have some revisions:

Sniper 4 / Paladin 11 / Arcane Archer 15

14 Str
8 Dex
12 Con
12 Int
18 -> 28 Wis
16 Cha

Pre-epic:
Free feats: Weapon focus: Longbow, Point-blank shot, rapid shot, Favored enemy: Undead (bonus)
General feats: Blind-fight, Zen archery, power attack, divine might, improved critical: Longbow, Called shot, Mounted combat
Epic:
Bonus: Epic weapon focus: Longbow
General feats: epic skill focus: discipline, Mounted archery, Great Wisdom II

What we lose:
2 dice of damage from imbue arrow
1 arrow enchantment (+9 -> +8)
1 bonus Epic Arcane Archer feat (-1 AB without epic prowess)
6 skill points

What we gain:
3rd level paladin spells (prayer, magic circle vs. alignment, dispel magic)
Extra 2nd level Paladin spell slot & 2nd level spells while pre-epic (4/8/8 levels split, or 3/9/8 to maximize animal empathy)
better divine favor (+2 -> +3 AB/damage), better overall spell durations
better lay on hands

I forgot to account for ranger spells completely, 4 levels gets us 1st level spells (resist elements at a lower level & ultravision)

With regards to the cleric, I don't like the lack of empowered divine might, unlike what paladins gain, also lacks aura of glory for easier charisma boosting synergy. Mostly it just gets stronger and more numerous divine favors as well as battletides for damage boosts, requiring divine power to get 20 BAB. Still 8 AB short, compared to arcane archer. Less hits, less damage, though more versatility from divine magic, yet no pre-epic general feats left over for metamagic or spell foci, if you take what this build takes.

With the bard I don't feel like we'd get the most out of UMD as we wouldn't want to annihilate our item caster level by using our own relatively low level spells, which are a notable part of the build.


EDIT:
If I were inclined to get UMD and not cast spells from spellbooks, I would take make it Bard 5 / Paladin 6 / Arcane Archer 19
(4/6/10 pre-epic)

Since we'd lack the sniper levels, we'd have to get 13+ dexterity for rapid shot, meaning we should drop wisdom and go the traditional dexterity way, incidentally improving our ranged touch attacks as well, for the special arrows:

14 str
18 -> 28 dex
10 con
14 int
8 wis
16 cha

Drop Animal Empathy and Ride
Instead get UMD and Listen & Spellcraft OR Hide & Move Silently (as well as full Tumble and a few points in Perform)

Drop zen archery, mounted combat, mounted archery, great wisdom feats
Instead get great dexterity III and blinding speed.


On further reflection: While the bard is much less divine, it's much more effective.

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Dr. B
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Re: Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

Post by Dr. B » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:44 pm

Do the latter build, the 6/5/19. It's a relatively standard build and vastly better than one that lacks UMD. I'm not sure why you'd need great dex III, though. Get your dex up to 26, and make sure you fit in epic skill focus: discipline. I'd also go half-elf for more constitution; try to fit 14 on there, going for only 13 str. Alternatively, be a 6 Bard/5 Harper Paragon instead of a paladin and you won't have to worry about the str requirements for divine might.

19 levels is what you want on any decent AA build.

Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:54 pm

Hold the phone.

Since when can you use Power Attack with a ranged weapon?
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Re: Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

Post by TimeAdept » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:23 pm

You can't, but it's a pre-req for Divine Might, unless you get it free via Paragon.

Lurch
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Re: Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

Post by Lurch » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:23 pm

If Harper were on the table, I'd rather pick Master Harper instead of Paragon with its caster levels (when we wouldn't want to cast any of our spells anyway), divine grace (already have good saves), divine shield (good, but not necessary) and divine might (that isn't empowered like the paladin's).

A 6/5/19 Master Harper could spam endless level 11 bard/curse songs (+/- 2 AB, AC, damage, skills, +/- 1 saves, 8 Temp HP), only needing 18 perform to do so. Less burst damage, more durability. Something like this:

Wild Elf - True Neutral - Grace, Endurance, +1 racial AC

10 str
21 -> 30 dex
16 con
12 int
8 wis
11 cha (bard requirement)

338 base Hitpoints, 18/31/18 base saves

Pre-Epic Feats:
Trackless Step (Free), Toughness (Free), Iron Will, Alertness, Curse Song (Bonus), Point-blank shot, Weapon focus: Longbow, Rapid Shot, Called Shot, Improved Critical: Longbow

Epic Feats:
Blinding Speed, Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow (Bonus), Blind-fight, Epic Skill Focus: Discipline, Epic Prowess (OR Weapon Finesse to save arrows OR Lingering Song to reduce necessary spam), Great Dexterity I (Bonus), Great Dexterity II (Bonus)


Incidentally, now I've drifted completely off the divine archer track. Maybe those two things weren't meant to be...

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Dr. B
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Re: Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

Post by Dr. B » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:04 am

Lurch wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:23 pm
If Harper were on the table, I'd rather pick Master Harper--
No, you'd rather pick Harper Paragon. In addition to giving you a huge saving throw bonus, the extra +10 (+20 on a critical) damage from your Divine Might will be more of an asset than infinite uses of a weak Bard Song, giving a piddling damage bonus and a negligible boost to AB that you don't even need because you're an Arcane Archer with already very high AB.

Lurch
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Re: Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

Post by Lurch » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:43 am

If damage is as big of a concern as you put it (for which I can definitely see the appeal) then Paragon is clearly subpar compared to Paladin, which gets empowered divine might (Paragon putting spare strength into extra charisma pales in comparison, also mighty weapon property is a thing, is it not?), whilst grabbing +2 BAB (one can never have too much AB, especially with combat feats like called shot targetting discipline), fear immunity, an even better fortitude save, 24 more hitpoints and lay on hands pocket heal. Something like this:

(Wild Elf) 5 Bard / 6 Paladin / 19 Arcane Archer
14 str
18 -> 26 dex
14 con
12 int
8 wis
16 cha

Base Hitpoints: 332 (Free Toughness)
Base Saves: 23/29/16

Looking pretty good, if I do say so myself...

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Dr. B
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Re: Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

Post by Dr. B » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:53 am

Lurch wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:43 am
If damage is as big of a concern as you put it (for which I can definitely see the appeal) then Paragon is clearly subpar compared to Paladin, which gets empowered divine might
OK. Then that would be an argument for favoring Paladin over Harper Paragon, not an argument for favoring Master Harper over Harper Paragon.

As for the benefits of going Paladin over Harper Scout, you're right. Or you would be, except that you're wrong: the 1.5 damage bonus that applies for two-handed weapons only works on two-handed melee weapons, not on bows or crossbows. That int score will also make you very skill-pointed starved, in addition to having to drop a feat for divine might/shield. You need 14 int, and you won't be able to get that with the Paladin's prerequisites for Divine Might/Shield in the way. With 12 str, you can get that 14 int and then use Bull's Strength potions to get the most out of your bow's Mighty property.

Lurch
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Re: Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

Post by Lurch » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:01 am

Dr. B wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:53 am
the 1.5 damage bonus that applies for two-handed weapons only works on two-handed melee weapons, not on bows or crossbows.
Really? I seem to recall asking about that very thing sometime ago. Perhaps it was changed. Perhaps I'm mis-remembering the answer then.

And yeah, I did overlook the lack of skill points with paladin, 14 int would definitely help ameliorate the issue, though it would mean taking gift of learning, instead of confidence. Or Wood Elf, though that's more squishy with the constitution penalty.

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Dr. B
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Re: Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

Post by Dr. B » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:08 am

Oh, that was a wild elf? Well, if you play one of the worst subraces in Arelith, then yeah, you'll have problems all around.

For a multiple attribute dependent build like this, it's better not to take subraces that are gimped with horrible ability score penalties. Either make do with a bit less con and go moon elf, or, even better, play a half-elf. Wood elves and wild elves should only be taken for classes that depend on one attribute; for an arcane archer, that probably means a non-divine variant, either with monk or fighter levels in place of the divine dip.

Lurch
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Re: Divine Archer (moved to it's own thread)

Post by Lurch » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:58 am

If my goal was to get 14 in all ability scores except wisdom and then put the rest in dexterity, wild elves come out ahead of the pack, since they can take gift of grace and learning to get +4 dexterity with no intelligence penalty, starting out as 14 / 18 / 14 / 14 / 8 / 14. They trade divine shield for toughness, and get +1 AC from their race on top, which I assume stacks with everything (does it though?)

Additionally, depending whether one cares about lore/search/persuade, paladin build actually comes out ahead of paragon by 10 skill points into important stuff like discipline, listen, spot, spellcraft, tumble and UMD, due to harper skill pre-requisites. Also it saves final bard level to epic levels instead of final paragon level. While this leaves us with one fewer epic feat, it allows us to reach higher spellcraft. To do the same in paragon would require 5/5/10 pre-epic, which gives -1 BAB and all saves, in addition to losing the epic bonus feat.

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