20 CoT Worth It?

[Wytchee]

Just toying around with builds atm.

To manage a full CoT build, you have to take 10 CoT levels in epic, which forgoes things like a final tumble/UMD dump. While you can get 20 tumble and enough UMD by taking your last rogue level at 17-20, that's still 2 less AC than you would have if you'd taken it at level 27. So just curious if anyone thinks the extra +2 damage/ab and 15/+5 DR really worth giving that up.

[msterswrdsmn]

I'd say no, personally. CoT has diminishing returns after the 10th level; you get a bonus feat every 4 levels instead of 2. You still get the bonus to saves every other level, but thats about it. Divine Wrath isnt terribly useful, and a lot of its abilities can be replicated to some extent with other feats or UMD.

[PinataPlethora]

If you have high enough Charisma to stretch it to 20 rounds, maybe. That would also give you a great Lay on Hands. Otherwise, 15 or 18 should be good so that you get saves and duration, but still have a final skill dump.

[Opustus]

Paladin10/CoT20 for smoitydoity fun?

[StrykerMontgomery]

Paladin10/CoT20 for smoitydoity fun?

That's essentially determining if it's worth it, the niche greater smiting build. Although you then need another paladin to make you holy avenger scrolls.

[Opustus]

Yeaah, and it's probably still better as Pally5/Fighter5/CoT20.

[Wytchee]

Rogue 4 / Pally 6 / CoT 20 was the build I had in mind.

Seems it's Rogue 6 / Pally 6 / CoT 18 now.

Not a smite build. Functions like ye olde paladin build, only with wrath.

[Opustus]

Might as well go Pally7/Rogue5/CoT18 for more smite. Rogue4/Paladin6/CoT10 into Rogue5/Paladin7/CoT18, to grab both Taunt and Rogue skills and a wee bit of smithe. EDIT: Right, not a smyter.

[Freyason]

I have cot 20, wouldn't do it again if he wasn't a kensai

Divine Wrath isnt terribly useful

hope that was a joke

[Tarkus the dog]

No in most cases but it can be fun to try, as it would put your character in funny AB levels.

[Cortex]

Divine wrath is one of the main reasons to CoT.

[Scurvy Cur]

20 CoT is worthwhile now that wrath is on an 8 min timer instead of 1/day, but the old standby 20 CoT build doesn't shine nearly as well without Kensai. I'll crunch the numbers on 4 Rogue/6 Pal/20 CoT soonish (tm). But gut feeling says it'll be servicable if you're looking for something that hits really hard for about 1 fight in 3, and is otherwise kind of a dependable workhorse.

[afreshstart]

I had made a build for a half-orc CoT using a double axe. I can send it if you are interested. Although it has to "waste" a feat in order to work

[Elaetheus]

A bit of a necro, but only slightly.

20 CoT is worthwhile now that wrath is on an 8 min timer instead of 1/day, but the old standby 20 CoT build doesn't shine nearly as well without Kensai. I'll crunch the numbers on 4 Rogue/6 Pal/20 CoT soonish (tm). But gut feeling says it'll be servicable if you're looking for something that hits really hard for about 1 fight in 3, and is otherwise kind of a dependable workhorse.

The utmost issue of this combo is that there is no way to take rogue 4 at epics, so you get at most 23 tumble and UMD. Also Extra Turning is out of question (and it makes sense to rest less on a CoT-centered build given Divine Wrath is on a cooldown); if you start with rogue rapier is your only real choice for later.

I feel like CoT's progression on epics should be tied to epic bonus feats (so we get DR and DW upgraded every four levels). I wrote about it in a suggestion I posted today.