Collector/Explorer Rogue

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Kenji
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Collector/Explorer Rogue

Post by Kenji » Mon May 14, 2018 10:20 am

Hi guys, I've been trying to come up with a PvE-oriented build that focuses on exploring and partying up with others. Since I'm relatively new to this persistent world and its mechanics/enchantments/limitations, some insights regarding my build would be appreciated.

I copied and pasted the build directly from THE ESSENTIAL COOKIE-CUTTER BUILD GUIDE, but made some changes to some things. Please give me your insight on some aspects of it:

Fighter(6), Rogue(24), Human (No elves, I know they're superior stat-wise but I prefer to RP as a mundane Joe who sets out to see the world)

1. The build being ranged oriented - Is this a good idea? If not, I can always swap back to melee and the rest of the build will remain intact
Longbow Rogue
Changed Str from 13 to 15, Con from 14 to 11 to utilize +3 might on bows (kite the aggro'd monsters around the melee tank to proc opportunity attacks)
Feats swapped from melee feats to ranged feats (point blank shot, rapid shot, weapon focus/specialization, improved critical, etc.)
Question: Should I take Called Shots?
Leftover melee feats will be transitioned to RP skills (Lore, etc..), which leads to the next part...

2. Skill choices (? is asking for how many points should I dedicate to)
My list of swapped skills and their ideal ranks:
Set Traps(33) -> Lore(33, for understanding languages)
Bluff(33) -> Appraise(16)/Persuade(16)
8 points in Crafting Armor/Weapon

Is disable traps at 10 enough for most hostile traps? Should I bother with setting traps during fights?

3. Crafting
All points into Tailoring for repairs

I have tried to do as much research as I can, any insights would be very helpful!

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Opustus
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Re: Collector/Explorer Rogue

Post by Opustus » Mon May 14, 2018 11:48 am

1. It's not a good idea to be ranged, but it's certainly doable. Making the arrows is a satanic pain, I've been told. Ranged is not as good as melee, but you'll still get weapon finesse for when your arrows run out or when you're in a tough spot with no choice but to sword 'n board, even though not being able to land sneak attacks is the absolute worst scenario for a rogue. My biggest gripe with going ranged would be to lose out on effectively one attack per round due to not dualwielding (rogues' damage output relies on bursts of damage out of stealth, so one more attack with which to land a hit is a big deal) and not being able to KD opponents in PvE especially.

The one boon of ranged as rogue is that you can easily pop round the corner for restealth, but you have to within 30 feet of the target in order for sneak attack to trigger. You'll get a hang of this by experimenting.

About STR and CON and such: you can gear optimally for your ratpacking purposes, but if you want to be able to carry heaps of stuff, then STR at some point is useful. Landing on even numbers for stats is generally useful; make at the very least sure that you land on an even score of DEX in your endbuild. (You get 7 ability points with levelups altogether and can spend general epic feats on ability points.)

2. Take the skills you deem most important for the character. The only essential ones for your survival in combat are Discipline, Hide, Move Silently, UMD10-15, and Tumble30.

You tend to set traps out of combat, so then you always get the take 20 for set roll. The highest DC for set trap is 65. Hence, for example, 20 + 15 DEX + 30 Set trap is the most you need. You get synergy points from every 5 ranks in Set trap into Disable trap. I don't know what the highest DCs for disable are in Arelith, but usually you are able to have specific gear for the purpose of collecting traps.

3. No clue what you should take up for crafts.


Hope that helps!
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Kenji
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Re: Collector/Explorer Rogue

Post by Kenji » Mon May 14, 2018 1:03 pm

It helped a lot! I almost forgot that set/disable trap skills complemented each other. If the ranged build doesn't pan out, I'll just go for the melee build. The update on Rapier/Dagger looks really cool, anyway.

Thanks for your input.

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Re: Collector/Explorer Rogue

Post by Astegard » Mon May 14, 2018 1:17 pm

I currently have a rogue with 16 str and it appears to be the ideal amount (+1-2 str from items) for carrying all the loot and on use items you find in chests.
of the 6 backpack tabs i have the following:
1 full with healing items and potions and scrolls I intend to use
2 Nice loot/stuff i want to sell and magical bags/jewelry box etc
3 On use items or use per day items (you will find a lot of these)
4 Ammunition and essences and poisons
that leaves tab 5-6 +- empty for stuff you find and looting.

As rogue you will quickly find magical bags in chests that will help with the carry weight.

As for combat my rogue is ranged with an Xbow and a ranged sneak attack nearly instantly triggers any mob you shoot to attack you for some reason (regardless of summons or melee attackers), so melee might be safer?

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Re: Collector/Explorer Rogue

Post by Kenji » Mon May 14, 2018 1:44 pm

That's an interesting choice on crossbow! I do find that in parties when using ranged attacks, it's best to tail the melee members before shooting at any aggro'd enemies. If the ranged character pulls aggro, s/he can then kite the enemy around the melee to help them proc opportunity attacks (very helpful on maximizing damage output).

I haven't had the chance to get very far in this world, yet, however, now that you have mentioned there are +2 stat items out there, I can see why even ability scores are recommended.

I have also tried to look for crafts, composite longbows have might up to +3, whereas Grand longbow is only +2. I guess with crossbows, strength isn't needed to be finetuned. What is it about the ammunition that seems like a hassle? Is it because of the crafting requirements?

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Re: Collector/Explorer Rogue

Post by Astegard » Mon May 14, 2018 2:14 pm

If you want to use a ranged weapon use one of the rogue speciality ranged weapons to get +2 ab at 24. (don't think this includes longbow)

From the wiki on rogues: http://wiki.arelith.com/Rogue
"
Specialty Weapons:

At level 19, gain +1 AB when using any Rogue Proficiency weapon, except the quarterstaff.
At level 24, gain +1 additional AB when using any Rogue Proficiency weapon, except the quarterstaff.
"

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Collector/Explorer Rogue

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon May 14, 2018 3:49 pm

Kenji3108 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:44 pm
That's an interesting choice on crossbow! I do find that in parties when using ranged attacks, it's best to tail the melee members before shooting at any aggro'd enemies. If the ranged character pulls aggro, s/he can then kite the enemy around the melee to help them proc opportunity attacks (very helpful on maximizing damage output).

I haven't had the chance to get very far in this world, yet, however, now that you have mentioned there are +2 stat items out there, I can see why even ability scores are recommended.

I have also tried to look for crafts, composite longbows have might up to +3, whereas Grand longbow is only +2. I guess with crossbows, strength isn't needed to be finetuned. What is it about the ammunition that seems like a hassle? Is it because of the crafting requirements?
Crafting the arrow/bolt bundles (aside from bronze bundles) requires:
Arrow Shafts (Carpentry DC 10)
Bag of Iron/Steel/Damask Arrow Heads (Art DC 11/17/22)
Iron/Steel Ingots (Forging DC 8/9)
Casting Mold (Art DC 1)
Which finally combine into...
Bundle of Iron/Steel/Damask Arrows/Bolts (Carpentry OR Forging DC 17/21/25)

Basically it involves a lot of resource gathering and crafting, which can feel like a massive chore, especially on a low strength character. If you're using a bow, you can probably find an archer-path ranger somewhere to sell you their extra bundles. If using a crossbow, you pretty much have to make them yourself.

For aggro management, you can also have a tank use -guard on you. As long as you stay close to them and don't proc AoO attacks, they'll keep all the aggro off you and allow you to keep sinking those sweet sneaks.

Regarding crossbow vs. longbow, while it's true that crossbow is on the rogue proficiency list and should benefit from the improved AB when leaving stealth, it's also true that crossbows are just generally not a strong choice. They require the Rapid Reload feat to get more than one APR, and they can't use Rapid Reload, which is invaluable on a ranged build (which tend to be lower damage/hit) for getting more attacks off. And see above about crafting bolt bundles. Shortbows, however, are on the rogue list.

Personally I would go melee, primarily because I hate bundle crafting, but if that doesn't sound awful to you, then you might have a reasonably fun time. Alternately, look into a melee shadowdancer build, which comes with a built-in tank that automatically -guards you and is amazing if you're mostly interested in exploration.
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Re: Collector/Explorer Rogue

Post by Gable Morninglord » Mon May 14, 2018 6:12 pm

I was just looking at this build from the cookie cutter. What is the purpose of taking a Fighter(5) level at 23? What are the benefits of having 6 fighter lvls vs. only 5?
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Re: Collector/Explorer Rogue

Post by Sab1 » Mon May 14, 2018 6:40 pm

I love bows, one of the best assassins I knew IG was a bow user. Traps can be highly useful depending if alone or not. When with a party I always found by the time I finished laying the traps the melee already ran past them to attack. If you think you might be involved in PVP, traps can be really useful. As a rogue I usually max out disable trap anyway due to plenty of skill pts, what ypu need for disable depends a lot on if its a pc set trap or an ig trap. PC laid traps can easily get a dc of 80+ to remove.

For ranged I always try to take called shot. A shot to the leg may buy you the extra time you need to save your butt and get out.

The crafting armor and weapons actually is used ig? I always thought those were not used skills.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Collector/Explorer Rogue

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon May 14, 2018 6:45 pm

Taking fighter 5 at 23 pushes rogue 19 (which gives you a rogue bonus feat) to level 24, at which point your Dex is 25 and you can use the bonus feat to take Blinding Speed. Taking a 6th level of fighter gets you a bonus feat to use for epic weapon specialization.

Optimization shenanigans, basically.

And craft weapon/armor is ONLY used for getting extra crafting points/day, nothing else.
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Re: Collector/Explorer Rogue

Post by Tourmaline » Mon May 14, 2018 7:20 pm

What about just going 24 rogue 6 ranger for archer path? No weapon specialization but free steel arrows and +2 ranged damage, plus a bit of favored enemy damage.

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Re: Collector/Explorer Rogue

Post by Kenji » Tue May 15, 2018 2:01 pm

So much to contemplate on, I really like the ranger's archer path, but at the same time want to retain that lock-picking/trap-disabling independence of being a rogue.. Might have to theory craft some rogue/ranger/fighter build.

If only Arelith has a lvl30 test server to try out builds, there are many mechanical and balancing changes to consider to make theory-crafting difficult.

But thanks for the replies guys, really appreciate all of your thoughtful comments. I might go shortbow rogue afterall.

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Re: Collector/Explorer Rogue

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue May 15, 2018 3:11 pm

That ranger 6/rogue 24 could work quite nicely, 5 ranger pre-epic for steel arrows, one in late epics as a discipline dump. You'd have to start as ranger to take archer path, but skill points shouldn't be a worry. Your damage on non-sneak attacks is gonna be pretty bad, though, even with fully-essenced steel arrow bundles.

Alternately, you could do rogue 20/ranger 5/fighter 5, taking ranger 5/fighter 4/rogue 11 pre-epic, and then taking fighter 5 at either 24, 27, or 30 (so you can pick up EWS and do a discipline dump). 27 seems like a good compromise - you probably don't want to get all the way to 30 with no EWS and pre-epic levels of discipline! This way trades 1 rogue bonus AB for 1 BAB, so that's a wash, but you're also losing 20% sneak movement speed, 1 AB stealth advantage, 5 spot/listen, and you go from being able to wear leather armor and probably still have your full dex bonus to AC, to only being able to wear padded. All that in exchange for 6 damage... might not be worth it.
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Re: Collector/Explorer Rogue

Post by Kenji » Tue May 15, 2018 5:20 pm

That was fast! I noticed that I can swap out about 6 feats if I am going ranged. I think I can also squeeze in mounted combat/archery!

Here's a rough draft:
01: Rogue(1): Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Rogue(3): Expertise, {Uncanny Dodge I}
04: Fighter(1): DEX+1, Mounted Combat, (DEX=20)
05: Fighter(2): Weapon Focus: Shortbow
06: Fighter(3): Improved Expertise
06: Fighter(3):
07: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization: Shortbow
08: Rogue(4): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
09: Rogue(5): Mounted Archery
10: Rogue(6)
11: Rogue(7)
12: Rogue(8): DEX+1, Called Shot, (DEX=22)
13: Rogue(9)
14: Rogue(10): Feat Slot
15: Rogue(11): Improved Critical: Shortbow
16: Rogue(12): DEX+1, (DEX=23)
17: Rogue(13): Improved Evasion
18: Rogue(14): Skill Focus: Lore
... (doubt I'll go past 21 levels before sacrificing the character)

Lore 33, Disable Trap 15, Discipline 32, Heal 33, Hide 33, Move Silently 33, Open Lock 33, Search 33, Appraise 22, Persuade 22, Tumble 30, UMD 16, Ride 30

I understand that riding shuts off Tumble AC (Arelith changes), makes most Rogue skills useless while riding (except search), I still have to get off horses from time to time so I'm keeping some of those.

Any suggestions on the two extra feats? I'm starting to like where this is headed. I'll edit the OP once I come up with 1 or 2 satisfactory lists. Also, I guess I can just beg for arrow bundles or clutch apply temporary elemental damage on cheap arrows. I don't really need to max out everything here, do I?

Edit: If I am taking the mounted path, that means I won't be sneaking on the surface, maybe the Rogue 20/Ranger 5/ Fighter 5 won't be as punishing as it seems?
Last edited by Kenji on Tue May 15, 2018 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Collector/Explorer Rogue

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue May 15, 2018 5:50 pm

Expertise and Imp. Expertise are pretty much always good choices for emergency situations, though I would take them early on.
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Re: Collector/Explorer Rogue

Post by Kenji » Tue May 15, 2018 6:28 pm

You're right, I'm better off using sword n board n expertise if I'm running away in emergency situations.

I have swapped out called shot to have it later on, and the lore focus is even later on the list, that leaves one feat left. I'm thinking knockdown and maybe improved knockdown to replace lore focus if clutch CC is needed at times.

Edit for Questions:
Regarding the 20 Rogue/5 Ranger/5 Fighter or 24 Rogue/6 Ranger, what stats would you suggest? I'm thinking str: 12, dex 17, con: 12, wis: 11 (ranger class minimum), int: 14, cha: 8

If one can't think of a RP reason for favored enemies (2 of them at lvl5 ranger), what would you pick?

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