Viability of the following build in a PvP scenario

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Wrips
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:06 am

Viability of the following build in a PvP scenario

Post by Wrips » Sun May 13, 2018 1:35 am

Arelith Kama Cleric of Bane (Monk 4 / Cleric 23 / Rogue 3)
Human, Lawful Evil
Playable 1 - 30
Only legal on Arelith with gifts for DEX +2 and WIS +2.

Abilities:
STR: 8
DEX: 18 (24)
CON: 12
WIS: 18 (20)
INT: 14
CHA: 8

Leveling Guide:
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Monk(1): Blind Fight, Expertise, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}
02: Monk(2): {Deflect Arrows}
03: Monk(3): Weapon Finesse
04: Cleric(1): DEX+1, Domain Travel, Domain War, (DEX=19)
05: Cleric(2)
06: Cleric(3): Extend Spell
07: Cleric(4)
08: Cleric(5): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
09: Cleric(6): Weapon Focus: Kama
10: Cleric(7)
11: Cleric(8)
12: Cleric(9): DEX+1, Knockdown, (DEX=21)
13: Cleric(10)
14: Cleric(11)
15: Cleric(12): Spell Focus (Abjuration)
16: Cleric(13): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
17: Monk(4)
18: Cleric(14): Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration)
19: Cleric(15)
20: Cleric(16): WIS+1, (WIS=19)
21: Cleric(17): Epic Weapon Focus: Kama
22: Cleric(18)
23: Cleric(19)
24: Cleric(20): DEX+1, Arcane Defense (Abjuration), (DEX=23)
25: Cleric(21)
26: Rogue(1)
27: Rogue(2): Epic Skill Focus (Concentration)
28: Rogue(3): DEX+1, {Uncanny Dodge I}, (DEX=24)
29: Cleric(22)
30: Cleric(23): Armor Skin, Great Wisdom I (WIS=20)

Important skills w/ modifiers from equipment: Concentration 47, Hide 46, Listen 29, Move Silently 42, Spellcraft 35, Tumble 42, UMD 15

Can it be further tweaked for PvP? Are the MS/Hide worth the points? Is stealth vs arcanists viable with these numbers?

Warrior Clerics are a love of mine but with the pratical cap of Greater Dispelling plus Abjuration foci bringing it to 26, it feels like melee clerics are defunct for PvP.

PinataPlethora
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Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:41 am

Re: Viability of the following build in a PvP scenario

Post by PinataPlethora » Sun May 13, 2018 1:57 am

WIthout any Discipline, PvP viability drops sharply. You will be very good at not getting hit, but as soon as you get KDed, you will be very unhappy. Your Monk speed will give you an edge when things go sideways, but only a tiny one, and none against Barbarians.

Get you some Discipline, or stick with spells and frantic running.

Wrips
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:06 am

Re: Viability of the following build in a PvP scenario

Post by Wrips » Sun May 13, 2018 2:18 am

Isn't discipline basically redundant with my AC? One thing I could potentially do is to ditch the abjuration feats, take Improved Expertise for added safety and Craft Wand to give me some flexibility with dispelling. Then, I'd have a remaining feat to invest somewhere.

Tourmaline
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:51 am

Re: Viability of the following build in a PvP scenario

Post by Tourmaline » Sun May 13, 2018 2:18 am

You'd probably do much better to make it a quarterstaff based healer path cleric for one thing. I'd probably go like 14 str., 15 dex and get the ambidexterity and 2 weapon feats. Or make a half orc for free ambidexterity if it works RP wise. But on a lawful cleric/monk it's a total waste not to make the awesome healing path work. You do have to start as a cleric to take healer path though.

You don't need epic concentration. Epic abjuration would be a much better use of an epic feat. But if you're going war domain I'd take transmutation focus to epic for the vastly improved zoo and aura of vitality spells.

I might also just go 26 cleric/ 4 monk or 24/6 for speed and free KD/IKD and lose rogue. UMD is nice but it's not as essential on a cleric, especially one that gets haste.

You do need discipline, and I'd not worry so much about dispelling. Be wary of it but lots of people play spellswords and battleclerics that are vulnerable to dispels and still do well.

Just some random thoughts.. I'm sure someone will tear them apart. But regardless the healer cleric/monk is a solid build that may never be the best at 1 on 1 PVP but can totally change the way a fight goes if they have a party or a partner.

PinataPlethora
Posts: 729
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:41 am

Re: Viability of the following build in a PvP scenario

Post by PinataPlethora » Sun May 13, 2018 2:35 am

Wrips wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 2:18 am
Isn't discipline basically redundant with my AC?
It is until it isn't. You can survive on just AC 99% of the time in PvE, and easily more than half of the time in PvP, but when you take a natural 20 and it's a KD, it can end a mid HP character.

If the proposed character had more like 12-15 Monk levels, I think dropping discipline could be workable, but without that extreme mobility advantage, you have to have a reliable counter to KD spam.

Wrips
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:06 am

Re: Viability of the following build in a PvP scenario

Post by Wrips » Sun May 13, 2018 3:07 am

PinataPlethora wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 2:35 am
It is until it isn't. You can survive on just AC 99% of the time in PvE, and easily more than half of the time in PvP, but when you take a natural 20 and it's a KD, it can end a mid HP character.

If the proposed character had more like 12-15 Monk levels, I think dropping discipline could be workable, but without that extreme mobility advantage, you have to have a reliable counter to KD spam.
I understand your point about KD spam now. How many ranks w/ modifier do you recommend for Discipline?
Tourmaline wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 2:18 am
You'd probably do much better to make it a quarterstaff based healer path cleric for one thing. I'd probably go like 14 str., 15 dex and get the ambidexterity and 2 weapon feats. Or make a half orc for free ambidexterity if it works RP wise. But on a lawful cleric/monk it's a total waste not to make the awesome healing path work. You do have to start as a cleric to take healer path though.
I might think about it although I'm with the proposed build in my mind for some time. Also, I prefer human over half orc because of RP reasons.
You don't need epic concentration. Epic abjuration would be a much better use of an epic feat. But if you're going war domain I'd take transmutation focus to epic for the vastly improved zoo and aura of vitality spells.
Epic Concentration was taken in absence of Improved Expertise to deal with taunters but I agree the principle wasn't well thought. About the transmutation focus, what's "zoo"? And is it really worth three feats to extend AoV to turns/level?
I might also just go 26 cleric/ 4 monk or 24/6 for speed and free KD/IKD and lose rogue. UMD is nice but it's not as essential on a cleric, especially one that gets haste.
Intriguing proposal. The lost Uncanny Dodge can be a problem, however can't it?
You do need discipline, and I'd not worry so much about dispelling. Be wary of it but lots of people play spellswords and battleclerics that are vulnerable to dispels and still do well.
The 23/4/3 gives me the possibility to wand most of my buffs. Would that be useful?

PinataPlethora
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Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:41 am

Re: Viability of the following build in a PvP scenario

Post by PinataPlethora » Sun May 13, 2018 3:16 am

Wrips wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 3:07 am
I understand your point about KD spam now. How many ranks w/ modifier do you recommend for Discipline?
60 is a good baseline that's worked well for me in the past, but the closer you can get to 70, the better.
Wrips wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 3:07 am
Epic Concentration was taken in absence of Improved Expertise to deal with taunters but I agree the principle wasn't well thought.

About the transmutation focus, what's "zoo"? And is it really worth three feats to extend AoV to turns/level?
Taunters aren't as common as you'd think. I'd be A LOT more worried about KD.

Zoo spells are stuff like Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc...
With Transmutation Focus, they increase your stats even more, so you can very easily hit the +12 stat bonus cap for several stats without the need for runic equipment, and instead load up with saves and skills.
Whether this is worth the investment will depend on how you like to play.

Tourmaline
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:51 am

Re: Viability of the following build in a PvP scenario

Post by Tourmaline » Sun May 13, 2018 3:44 am

Uncanny dodge only lets you keep dex and you'll have AC coming from wisdom (monk), gear, magic vestment and more that won't be affected if you're flat footed. It's not mandatory, I don't even think you should be dex and finesse based really.

Aura of vitality is a +4 buff to all allies (including summons) on dex, con and str. Being able to use it turns/level is great and people will love you (until they die if the con goes away when they're near death but let's not think of that.) So yes it is great plus transmutation lets you create teleport portals at epic, which again, people will love you. And with the +4's plus transmutation bonus to bull strength etc you can get really high if not maxed wisdom, str, dex and con, all of which are useful.

As far as wanding goes-- a cleric can use divine wands without UMD and many scrolls as well. You'll be missing a few things with no UMD (no Time Stop access) but it really isn't essential if you're so worried about dispels. 26 cleric/4 monk gets you an extra epic feat too.

Wrips
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:06 am

Re: Viability of the following build in a PvP scenario

Post by Wrips » Sun May 13, 2018 3:55 am

Oh, I wasn't aware the "animal" spells referred on the wiki were the those spells. Now I can obviously see the sinergy between the "zoo" spells, AoV and the Transmutation foci. The ability to create portals is also interesting both pratically and for RP reasons (divine emissary ftw!)

I'm also open to suggestions for a strength based monk/cleric, if you'd like to share.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Viability of the following build in a PvP scenario

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun May 13, 2018 3:19 pm

I do not think that build is viable for pvp, and do agree with your battle cleric assessment on not being pvp viable due to the dispel change.
\

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Scurvy Cur
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Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:48 am

Re: Viability of the following build in a PvP scenario

Post by Scurvy Cur » Mon May 14, 2018 5:14 am

BegoneThoth wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 3:19 pm
I do not think that build is viable for pvp, and do agree with your battle cleric assessment on not being pvp viable due to the dispel change.
That's where you're wrong, kiddo.

Melee battlecleric was bad way before dispel got changed.


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Tarkus the dog
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Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:12 am

Re: Viability of the following build in a PvP scenario

Post by Tarkus the dog » Mon May 14, 2018 11:13 am

Its something I wanted to play a while back but was turned off by the poor CL, lack of epic spells and pain in the Snuggybear to level up. Funny enough its even stronger now with the runic system in place. I think it can be good, and it can kick some serious Snuggybear, but it is at the same time open to getting its butt equally beaten. I dont think youll suffer for playing it, but you gotta know what youre doing pvp wise.

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