Does it put off anyone else that...

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TheShadowdove
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Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by TheShadowdove » Wed May 02, 2018 12:37 pm

Hey forum-lurkers,

I know what every server has it's meta. However this is the first I've encountered so many blatantly prevailant feats in builds that you don't normally see elsewhere that it is almost disheartening.

Every build under the sun has been done, it is an old game, so many of us have seen some whacky ones even in Vanilla servers, but it makes creating builds less interesting when there are so many server specific build requirements endgame.

I suspect the reason for the popularity is not only that they are dang good feats to have in general, maybe not necessary with the status of a lot of servers(I guess there aren't as many these days as before to compare), but because a lot of other skills are dang near obselete on Arelith. This frees up some feats to get sucked into the meta harder.

For example... Epic skill focus discipline seems to be considered absolutely necessary, even on caster builds.

It probably is, because even the rogue builds often try to work in knockdown and improved knockdown more than anywhere else I've ever seen.

On top of knockdown being so prevailant in any melee builds, even rogues, expertise and improved expertise! Improved expertise seems like some sort of endgame clutch.

Nearly every melee build tries to squeeze in improved expertise if it can. Usually it is on a lot of builds that have feats to spare, but even the casters and Dex builds seem to want it badly. It has been used on all manner of characters, that's nothing new, but to this degree is almost depressingly cookie cutter.

I don't see a lot of mage builds with spell penetrations or skill focuses in concentration/spellcraft. Whereas normally you'd see mages try to scoop up as much concentration as possible.

You don't see many stealth builds that prioritize stealth above all else, taking every hide/Ms boost they can. Largely as a result of shadowdancer requiring 5 levels for HIPS, I imagine. So they too build to stay in combat and spam knockdown or expect to be spammed.

There aren't as many HIPS based builds, so you have less of a need for spot or listen. So only those with roleplay reason or a bias invest into those skills.

I'm sure there are more. And I'm not in any way saying that it is bad for the build to have these feats. But the meta is a hard on here, and full of gimmicks.

What other copy/paste feats, skills, or abilities do you see a lot of?

Rant /over

-Dove

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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by Ork » Wed May 02, 2018 1:05 pm

If you're perusing the forums for builds, you're going to find that by and large the server has homogenized easy to play builds. These homogenized builds come from years of playing on this particular server. On other servers that have high magic enchanted items (+5 and beyond weapons/armor/stat enchantments), you're going to see a distinctly different set of builds.

On Arelith, the reason popular builds have been developed as they are is because players have figured out "end game" stats and match their builds to compensate for flaws. For example, spell penetration - a level 26 wizard doesn't typically have to worry about spell resistance because they have a sizable caster level and know that breach can be used to lower SR if their spells aren't connecting. There are few items that offer SR and there are a few races that have innate SR to a specific level (32). There's no need to invest in feats if my 26 wizard rarely encounters players or monsters with SR. If a wizard encountered more players or monsters with higher SR, there would be a need to capitalize on these feats. At present, spell penetration is reserved for casters that typically have lower than 26 caster levels, or have no access to breach spells (i.e. Trueflame).

What you gain from skill focus feats like Epic Skill Focus: Spellcraft vs. Epic Skill Focus: Discipline causes players to prioritize one over the other. ESF: Spellcraft only gives +2 to saves vs. spells, but ESF: Discipline bumps most casters from a 54 discipline to a 64, which against a melee with 50 AB, you're decreasing your threat of IKD on the first attack from 80% to 30%. That could be the difference between staying on your back or having the opportunity to cast greater sanctuary.

Fortunately no one has to abide by these homogenized builds, but these builds are effective on the Arelith server. The decisions most players make when it comes to feats are by and large quality decisions for any server. Every server will have builds that prioritize IE because 5/10 more AC on a situational basis is a strong ability. Every server will invest in discipline because discipline is the only counter to combat abilities like knockdown and disarm, save for AC.

If you're disturbed by the meta here and want to play without that concerning you, it's best not to search around in the Builds & Mechanics forums.

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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by SockYeti » Wed May 02, 2018 1:34 pm

I'm still fairly new around here so take this for what it is worth.
I tend to avoid this section of the forms for the same reasons you list here, I read them and get a little discouraged because the way I'm building Poe is SO far from what is "meta" he will be fairly useless in "end game" but then I remind myself that it doesn't matter. I'm here for the RP and the RP is what makes this server great not the end game. A level 15 character with a crappy build can have just as much of an impact on the server as a level 30 character who has the perfect build and that is the beauty of this server.


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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by telmarael » Wed May 02, 2018 2:16 pm

And by far, spellcasters are the "class" with the most variety present on Arelith, arcane spellcaster more so. Melee builds are -never- free to choose their feats as they want to, no matter the server. It's the game itself that made them like that. Anyway, the present ammount of builds is just overwhelming, you only need time and passion to try them out.
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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by Void » Wed May 02, 2018 5:23 pm

TheShadowdove wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 12:37 pm
I know what every server has it's meta. However this is the first I've encountered so many blatantly prevailant feats in builds that you don't normally see elsewhere that it is almost disheartening.
Boy, if only you ever saw madness that happens on nwn2 + kaedrin builds.

My advice would be to simply avoid build forum if you dislike it.

The things you mentioned, have a reason.

Melee wants discipline, because discipline prevents you from being knocked down.
Rogue wants knockdown, because knocked down target can be sneak attacked.
Improved Expertise is good, because it gives you 10 ac and it is possible to compensate for loss of 10ab. For something like a kensai and non-magical fighter without barbarian DR, it is hard to be on frontline without it.
Melee builds want knockdown, because there are CASTERS in the game, and if you don't disable them quickly, they'll make you dead.
And so on.

Either way, if you dislike all of this, just avoid the build forums. I used to participate in nwn2 build madness in the past, now I have much more fun playing single-class characters.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by Baron Saturday » Wed May 02, 2018 5:31 pm

Yeah, it bums me out, sometimes. I mean, Arelith has been around for 15 years or something crazy like that, at this point, so a super-refined understanding of mechanics is sorta to be expected. Although updates do shake things up now and then!

Personally I tend to play stupid stuff, because for my style of play, mechanical PvP strength doesn't really matter. But for someone who's really interested in the PvP side of things? I can definitely see how Arelith's rather stultified meta could be frustrating.
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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by TheShadowdove » Wed May 02, 2018 6:01 pm

Nah, I don't have an aversion to the build forums themselves. You are all stand up folk here, and as helpful as can be.

And the benefits of everything I've mentioned don't really need explaining, they're good for a reason that shines like a beacon.

Despite all of the blaring similarities in meta builds, that doesn't mean that I do not gain insight from all of your experience on Arelith or ideas from the nonstandard builds that come up. I enjoy throwing together builds, which is why I even care that the strength of certain abilities is so apparent that it is almost necessary to include for many. I don't ask for a balance, as it normally leads to more imbalance, just to see if I was not alone.

What is nice is, outside of the meta, there are a lot of folks who ask for things that aren't PvP or PvE related as well. Which you don't see a lot of, as Arelith ALSO has mechanical elements to their roleplay devices. So the community overall is impressively diverse.

I hope it didn't come off like I was attack, as server balance and meta is going to always be an animal of it's own. Everything else about the server is phenomenal. The fact that it has not only survived, but thrived through the hard working devs and community is testament to that.

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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by TimeAdept » Wed May 02, 2018 6:10 pm

KD has always been a melee centric build, and Discipline has always been a go to skill, and epic feat, to counter it. Being a lower magic world without the vanilla +30 skill gloves means the feat goes up in usefulness.

Improved Expertise rockets up in usefulness in many servers as the game matures and we learned that builds generally do better when they don't have 10 con and 10 int, and 10 AC is a big deal. Especially on a server where you can guard people and hold aggro off of them, being able to bring your AC as high as possible to hold aggro vs 10 or so mobs can be absolutely mandatory.

Mages have never grabbed epic skill focus concentration, not in my entire history of playing the game. Same for spellcraft.

SDs don't go as heavy into stealth feats here because the class itself gives hide bonuses, and the fact that it has a 12 second cooldown, and having 100 stealth isn't helpful if you die in the 12 seconds it takes for you to be able to go hide again. On servers without a cooldown for HIPS, the stealth rockets back up into prevalence, and ESF hide becomes mandatory on Shadowdancers, and immediately falls out of vogue with all but the craziest once a cooldown is implemented.

Spot is still incredibly important as it breaks disguises - something that has fallen out of favor atm for purely OOC reasons, with nwnx being busted.

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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by Void » Wed May 02, 2018 6:32 pm

TheShadowdove wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 6:01 pm
Nah, I don't have an aversion to the build forums themselves. You are all stand up folk here, and as helpful as can be.

And the benefits of everything I've mentioned don't really need explaining, they're good for a reason that shines like a beacon.
Well, no offense was intended.

The good thing abotu the server right now is that it is possible to play fairly comfortably without investing heavily into builds and bubild forums. This is a breath of fresh air after experiencing insane build combination (in nwn2+kaedrin) in the past.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by Ork » Wed May 02, 2018 7:29 pm

I think there's room for builds on Arelith that choose options like ESF: Concentration or dirty fighting. There isn't a lot of examples for these builds in the Builds & Mechanics forums.

Why? This forum has primarily been about informing the player base about the mechanics of the game. Some of us have had years and years to tool around with the numbers, and in general this forum is a great medium to spread that knowledge to give everyone opportunity to informed decisions. Posting that ESF: Concentration is a good choice deceives people that otherwise wouldn't know any better.

If you're looking for roleplay choices on a character sheet, it's best to ask people individually. Personally all my characters have a strong build base, but I make conscious decisions that deviate from the cookie cutter. I am happy with those choices because I made them knowing it would cost in optimization. Some people don't have that luxury.

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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by TheShadowdove » Wed May 02, 2018 8:37 pm

I never said that focusing on concentration on Arelith is a good idea. I had no intention of misinforming, if that's how it can be interpreted.

I have played a number of vanilla and very modified servers where it could be important for a build over the years.

Among others, I was merely using it as an example of something that is not important to most casters in Areliths current meta, whereas it may be elsewhere.

I'm also not making any suggestions toward optimization.

Just prodding for feedback in regards to my original post and the current state of these from more experienced Arelith players, such as yourself and the others who had posted. It's giving me more insight as to how the flow of balance works here, as well as how to deviate from cookie cutters myself when I feel confident enough in my familiarity with the servers specific strengths and weeknesses to build things that are viable but not the norm.

I'd actually be curious to see one of these builds you mention that might benefit from ESF concentration more than another, seeing as Arelith builds don't seem to tend to need it. Probably something interesting and risky.

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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by Cortex » Wed May 02, 2018 11:45 pm

There's gimmick builds that work without being meta. And given most of people in Arelith aren't really good at the game, meta builds will only take you so far if you're not good at it. Meta really only applies to "high skill PvP/PvE" which barely exists in Arelith, and a lot of people who think they're really good because they can stomp a few newbs.

So long your build can fulfill a role or two well enough, it should have moderate success in both PvE and PvP.

A few example of random gimmick builds:
Healer CHA Cleric (ultra sanctuary)
Pure Wild Mage (it's quite possibly the most powerful mage in terms of firepower and magic when done right, but if you're in melee range of someone with KD, it's game over)
Barb/Ftr/WM(max retard melee damage but no UMD or tumble, also feat starved ish)

They're all "bad" and "awful" in meta terms, but they fulfill their roles exceedingly well.
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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by Tourmaline » Thu May 03, 2018 9:14 pm

I used to feel the same way, but I've come around. If you aren't after the top build everyone else uses at least the build forums let you know what's optimal so you can learn what rules you can break when you are making your high concept characters and experiments.

A thing about NWN is every server is like its own monopoly game where the person who owns the set has a bunch of weird and arbitrary house rules. What works elsewhere doesn't here, so seeing people be transparent about the best builds is actually good for the community and helpful for new players.

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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by susitsu » Thu May 03, 2018 9:28 pm

I have to say, the idea that many of the feats you've mentioned aren't common elsewhere just tells me you've had some bad builders impress their thoughts on you. I want to comment on expertise, as it's something people haven't yet-it's by no means an end game clutch. Rather, it's something you want to have by level 3 on many melee builds (or just regular expertise, it all depends) and you will be very thankful for it all the way to level 30.

Crits happen. You need to stop fighting to medkit yourself, and you do want to outheal the incoming DPS.

(Not only that, Arelith has the -guard command which means a lot for the value of expertise.)

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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri May 04, 2018 2:25 am

TheShadowdove wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 6:01 pm
What is nice is, outside of the meta, there are a lot of folks who ask for things that aren't PvP or PvE related as well. Which you don't see a lot of, as Arelith ALSO has mechanical elements to their roleplay devices. So the community overall is impressively diverse.
This is very true. As an example, I picked 'Courteous magocracy' on my Sorceress when I made her forever ago simply because the feat fits her style (especially the PnP description of it). It wasn't until recently that I learned that the lore gained from that feat actually contributes to Lore affecting languages and understanding of them. Worth it? Probably not, but I'm having fun nonetheless.


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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by TheShadowdove » Fri May 04, 2018 3:40 am

susitsu wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 9:28 pm
I have to say, the idea that many of the feats you've mentioned aren't common elsewhere just tells me you've had some bad builders impress their thoughts on you. I want to comment on expertise, as it's something people haven't yet-it's by no means an end game clutch. Rather, it's something you want to have by level 3 on many melee builds (or just regular expertise, it all depends) and you will be very thankful for it all the way to level 30.

Crits happen. You need to stop fighting to medkit yourself, and you do want to outheal the incoming DPS.

(Not only that, Arelith has the -guard command which means a lot for the value of expertise.)
Nah never said expertise wasn't common. The benefits, again, are blaringly obvious. I don't have anything against any individual feat or skill, and obviously don't avoid them out of some profound aversion to then.

It is, however, present in a lot more builds than I've seen elsewhere. Not just melee builds, not just the occasional caster, cleric, or shifter.

And people can label each other as expert or less than builders as much as they like. Every server is a different animal, which changes the scale. Either way, if you pay even a minute amount of attention to meta you pick up on what is and isn't more than viable.

Many of us have played on plenty of different servers over the decade plus that the game has been out, so our experiences are going to vary. As such, I don't assume everyone feels the same as I do.

Is it a terrible thing, the prevalence of certain abilities? No, it is not. It was just my comment on presence of the more than popular feats in a lot of Generic/meta builds and how I prefer not to see so many copy/pasted among the meta. Variety and all that.

In the end, it seems it's not all that important, as PvP is a very small part of most of the servers community. Which is where most optimizing makes a difference, unless you've a very specific intention for a character when you form the layout.

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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Sun May 13, 2018 4:33 am

Roleplay power always trumps build power on arelith. One of Arelith's monk most famous monks is just a oute monk high wisdom. From a builder's perspective, that is horrendous. From a RP perspective, he is a monk of monks.

Amazing saving throws

Speed that allows corner sneaking that puts hips to shame (so really he can literally choose to avoid any conflict at a whim or come on likr superman and batman's love child)

A spell resistance that makes any castet without spell penatration (and or heavily multoclassing( terrified as the ideaea of his stunning fist dc and high spell resist.

P.S.: said monk didn't do this, but if you really wanted a niche/special thing, take pure monk and all your epic feats improved spell resist. With 50 spell resist, only normal lvl 30 pure casters will have a decent chance of touching you with spells.

Will he ever without tricks beat a well made fighter or epic dodge monk toe to toe? No, bit he doesnt have to.

Also being a pure monk isnt so terrible pve because at lvl 20 half the monsters can't do anything againt you and your dr.

Another example, all the "cookie cutter paladin builds" will never be as food at smiting as say a pure 30 lvl paladin that does nothing but pump cha and get as many epic smite feats as possible with a long duratiom of holy avenger. Yeah he lacks other stuff, but the trade off may be very relevant depending on thr kind of character YOU want to play. I still have builds on my head that I am pretty sure are decently unique. But ultimately your build needs to represent what kind of character you want to play, not the other way around.
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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by Kuma » Sun May 13, 2018 11:35 am

It's worth noting that Arelith's mechanical changes and unique items mean that we have fairly unique ways of building, too.

As an example, you mention not seeing any mention of Concentration feats cropping up in builds. Arelith's made Defensive Casting a 'sticky' mode that doesn't drop out when you move. This makes it way more intuitive and viable as a method of play, so you only ever need a max of 27 Concentration, including item and CON bonuses, making Feat investment worthless.

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Re: Does it put off anyone else that...

Post by nobs3 » Sun May 13, 2018 7:24 pm

I hope "meta" is not that common like you discribe it.
Because people should not rob thenselfs that much fun:
- waiting till end epic levels until a build is fun to play (features, multiclass, charcater conzept etc.)
- not playing a unique character
- not playing an "extrem" characters with big weaknesses
...

In the last ten years playing Arelith I have brought the worst builds to epic level or lvl 30. (I have played NO chacater with skillfoki in disciplin and only one character with expertise (not improved:))

It is true that a good build can be enjoyed more than an extrem bad one. But Areliths mechanics and the rp of the playerbase support non "meta" even more IMO.

E.g.
My 30lvl wizzard with 4 ESF and 1 GSF (and penetration) is a perfect rp toolkit.
My 30lvl pure fearless barb is able to stand proud in battles when all others flee.
My 18rogue/6fighter/6monk dual kama is also a very enjoyable allrounder. (sneaky, pickpocketing, flurry sneak attack cribling strike fun) - maybe that last one is close to "meta" (no focus in disciplin but its the one with expertice).
...

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