Fgt/WM rogue...?

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Zaravella
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Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by Zaravella » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:44 am

I'm very new to the server... like 3 months.

I used to play back in 2006 or 7 but never got past level 5.


Anyways I am building a FGT/WM right now and I wanted to be reminded why it was ideal to take rogue levels. Was it only because of Tumble AC?

Also how wrong am I to build a str-based katana/shield WM, if I wanna face a two-handed Barbarian in combat?
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:54 am

Rogue is for tumble and, more importantly for the purposes of PvP, UMD.

As far as I know, dual-wielding barbs are top dog in melee right now, though obviously much of that comes down to the skill of the player.
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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by susitsu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:34 pm

Go bard for spellcraft on a weapon master, not rogue.

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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by Zaravella » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:58 pm

Why would I want Spellcraft.. over the benefits of tumble.. I can't cast counterspells with this build.


Also correct me if I'm wrong I can't just take 1 level of rogue in this server right... I'd have to take at least 3?
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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by cptcuddlepants » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:00 pm

Every 5 ranks in spellcraft gives you +1 to saves against spells. Bard also gets Tumble and Use Magic Device as class skills. They do get less skill points per level than rogues do, though, so that's something to keep in mind.

Yes to your second question. If you don't have any previous levels of rogue, you also need to take those 3 levels consecutively.
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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by Zaravella » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:32 pm

Well that changes the build I have in mind: 3 consecutive rogue levels, and I should take those at the very last for maximum skills...

I'd have to look closely and compare taking bard and rogue in a build module to see how much skill difference.
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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by Carlos Santana » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:49 pm

Zaravella wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:32 pm
Well that changes the build I have in mind: 3 consecutive rogue levels, and I should take those at the very last for maximum skills...

I'd have to look closely and compare taking bard and rogue in a build module to see how much skill difference.
The rogue receives 4 more skill points per level than the bard, so if you have 14 points in intelligence, you may be able to be fine with skill points from Bard, and have +3 on saving throws against spells). But keep in mind that rogues receives sneak attack and for free the features Evasion and Uncanny Dodge. But don't forget the level progression table too, since the bard will have 2 points of Will more than the rogue, which in the end means +5 points agains mind affecting spells. You can compare them here: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Rogue & http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Bard .

I am not an experienced player, but seems that a build that rely on criticals, therefore damage, will benefit more from rogue, while one that focus more on resistences, will benefits more from bard.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:18 pm

Ideally you want to take rogue/bard on levels 25-27. That let's you get 30 ranks of tumble for the max bonus there, while also giving you UMD as soon as possible. You can take the rogue/bard levels later, but you absolutely want your last level to be something with discipline so that you can max that out.

Definitely max out spellcraft, though (and get bonuses to it on gear when possible) for those increased saves against spells. They're incredibly useful.
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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by Temperance » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:30 pm

Due to Reflex being WM's high save, I'd recommend the rogue dip to make use of evasion. You'll never make a will save in epics as a WM, get used to clarity potions. You can cross-class 15 points of spellcraft for +3 against saves, and WM's aren't strung for feats, unless you plan to dual -wield those katanas, so you can pick up a save feat or two. Along with saves from gear, you'll have fairly decent Fort and Reflex. (I'd recommend /not/ using katanas as they don't get the best crit range, which is why WM's are so strong in the first place. Kukri would be best for that set up.)

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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by Zaravella » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:38 pm

Kinda too late about the weapon... I'm level 5 now with the bastard sword focus. But maybe I can delete and remake. I can always do that...

I have many things to think about, it seems. Thank you for the input, everyone. I really appreciate it.

Keep them coming, if you think of anything else, in the future.
Last edited by Zaravella on Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by susitsu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:01 pm

"Never" in the case of a rogue built weapon master, yes.

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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by Baron Saturday » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:23 am

Bastard sword is okay. Scimitar and rapier are the best choices for a strength-based WM, though.
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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by TheShadowdove » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:56 pm

Somewhat related.

If you do a 20/7/3 build, what should your skill point allocation be with 14int ?(nonhuman)

That's 150 skill points.
4*33 with 18 left over.

Discipline33
30 into spellcraft for +3 saves
30 into tumble for +3 ac.
4(8total) intimidate

That leaves us with 33+16 left for UMD and
splashes into another skill or two.

How much UMD do you need?

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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by TimeAdept » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:23 pm

16 UMD (or whatever gets you to 15) is all you need.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by Baron Saturday » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:39 pm

Ideally you want a few buffer points into UMD in case you get a cha drain or other skill debuff, but a final score of 10-15 is enough for general use. I find that even with 10 I can use pretty much any scroll, and most wands unless they have an insane number of charges (like 45+).

Also, I'm assuming a typo, but since you're dumping tumble on rogue levels, you'd have 30 actual ranks for +6 AC. For spellcraft, if you go rogue, you'd CC 16 ranks (that + int + spellcraft on gear is usually enough to get you over 30 total for a +6 v spells bonus), so a 32 point investment.

Whatever's leftover will probably go into heal.
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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by TheShadowdove » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:58 pm

33 disc
32 (16)spellcraft
32 heal
30 tumble
15 UMD
8(4) intimidate

Sound solid for a 150 sp build, or more UMD less heal?

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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by MoreThanThree » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:39 pm

TheShadowdove wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:58 pm
33 disc
32 (16)spellcraft
32 heal
30 tumble
15 UMD
8(4) intimidate

Sound solid for a 150 sp build, or more UMD less heal?
Just how many excess skill points does this build get? Ingeborg had a similar skillspread, with 20 intimidate and 20 lore.
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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by Dr. B » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:45 pm

susitsu wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:34 pm
Go bard for spellcraft on a weapon master, not rogue.
There is a huge drawback to this: a dip into 3 Bard levels will mean that you now have a caster level of 3 for the purpose of determining who can dispel effects from magical items. If you only take mundane classes, on the other hand, then your CL will be equal to your character level. Personally, I would advise going Rogue instead of Bard.
Last edited by Dr. B on Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by susitsu » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:47 pm

As far as how Neverwinter Nights has always, always worked, you are wrong. As long as you do not cast any bard spells, which you should be entirely incapable of, you retain your mudane caster level.

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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by Dr. B » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:48 pm

Oh? Then I'm either having a false memory, or am gravely misinformed. Why is the standard build Rogue rather than Bard, then?

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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by Baron Saturday » Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:05 pm

More skill points and evasion, I would imagine. The sneak die don't hurt. But I generally consider bard/rogue pretty interchangeable for the 20/7/3, there's benefits to each.
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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by flower » Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:16 pm

Evasion is good to have if you got high ref.


Also, as for bardic +2 ref save, if you take it post epic, you should not receive it, no? After 21st level you gain saves in epic progression table regardless of class, or so says wiki :D

Bastard sword has benefit of option going two hand. With 42 str on human it is +8 further damage (x3).

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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by Cortex » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:34 am

ive played a very powerful fgt/wm before with bastard sword

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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by Opustus » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:06 pm

Dropping this here lest I forget. With the newest changes to Rogue, the Rogue19/WM7/Fighter4 hath been born to us.
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Re: Fgt/WM rogue...?

Post by Zaravella » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:35 pm

Opustus wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:06 pm
Dropping this here lest I forget. With the newest changes to Rogue, the Rogue19/WM7/Fighter4 hath been born to us.
Interesting.


I'm going to test this sort of build in a relevelling module... now that servers are down for me.
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