On Kensai

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flower
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Re: On Kensai

Post by flower » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:56 pm

Well I do not understand the weird decision in past to open up things like BG, paladin and other spelllike abilities to kensai.

Potions do not offer immunities. No potion death ward, no immunity to grappling / disabling spells using dex.


The above listed builds will still outdo common meelers and those who reached top saves like BG will still have saves failing only on 1s.

I would prefer to have kensai removed from my character so I could re build it in old version of WM build.

Griefmaker
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Re: On Kensai

Post by Griefmaker » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:16 pm

Kensai was something fun since you did not have access to, nor need to worry about all the buffing and tons of wands and potions and the like everyone else has to because they want to be powerful. (Really, the fact that it is pretty much accepted if not required that one has to use so much magic that the Weave is torn is probably something that should be looked at by the Devs more than anything).

Kensai were innately less powerful because of it. That is fine, that is a choice a player makes when taking it.

Kensai as fighter, rogue, monk, barbarian was fine. Bring it back, leave it at that, don't add CoT, BG, ranger, paladin, and the like...that was silly.

This is an unfortunate decision.

Sab1
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Re: On Kensai

Post by Sab1 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:24 pm

+6 saves to me always seemed way too powerful. Once potions were allowed I don't see why it was kept. But this is also why I am against grandfathering/legacy. Since kensai lost the saves but they still have the offensive power that a kensai use to have. Honestly losing the saves and the free attack would of made a lot more sense to me then removing the +10spot/listen. Yeah this dings my character, it's not like it's unplayable now, I just would of perfered to of done away with it entirely over taking half the abilities away. Also BG and Paladin should of been banned from Kensai from the start. Anything that could cast a spell (not a special ability like rage) should of been a no no or the spell should of been disabled. I'm not upset Kensai have been done away with or that they were tweaked again. But if they are making things unfair get rid of all kensai, since offensively they are just as powerful as ever.

But this also shows why I am against tinkering of classes and such unless there is a real need. Because this shows that a change to one class can have a direct impact on something else. Tweaking Barbarians may seem harmless but now it has an unintended consequence of maybe making a kensai ability or something else extra powerful etc... Honestly I won't be shocked if there isn't a Runic/racial armor/weapon tweak coming, since these items do seem pretty potent at a time the server seems to be reducing the power creep.
Last edited by Sab1 on Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: On Kensai

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:14 pm

Hexgoblin wrote:This does hit the demographic who just tagged kensai onto their otherwise pretty traditional fighter builds for fun pretty hard. I agree.

But something decisive had to be done about the fairly wide array of builds tailored around the path, some of which objectively destroyed any semblance of class balance.

Examples that immediately come to mind:
>barbarian/fighter with the half-orc double weapons and the full trio of rage modes
>barbarian/fighter/BG with divine might/shield and thundering rage
>barbarian/fighter/WM
>paladin/CoT/WM
>fighter/CoT/WM

With proper gear applied, and bearing the +6 saves into consideration, all of the above steamroll any conventional competition. There's been a drastic rise in representation for all of these builds, to the point where the majority of spontaneous PvP or IG tournaments I've been part of or spectated recently has revolved entirely around them.

Losing the +6 saves, which as someone stated above is a remnant from their days of being locked out of potions, means that all of these decisive hyper-offense builds still have the offensive power that made them attractive in the first place. But, they've received a pretty glaring dent in their defenses. Which was necessary.

Flat number enhancers shouldn't outweigh the efficiency of a strategic approach. One makes sacrifices to gain something. Kensai using all of the above builds didn't. When you(especially with runecrafted gear) pack saves that can't be trumped on anything but a 1 roll, and an offensive that endows several hundred damage per round which has a near guarantee of landing courtesy of the kensai bonus APR being a BAB reset -- then you're quite frankly heading down a steep, dangerous slope. In reality, the loss of UMD to a character that circumvents the need for it entirely is very negligible.

I do feel for the people who feel wronged by their traditional fighters losing their fun kensai perks. I do. I don't for those who base their mechanical impact around being a steamroller who on behalf of the sheer amount of damage presented, additional saving throws, along with various class ability contingencies aren't at all punished for a disfavorable engagement. Just by virtue of how little counterplay these builds allow.

As such, you could either do away with kensai, or impose changes on multiple classes individually, weakening them to accomodate the path. In light of that, I feel like cutting away the common denominator is the much more humane option.

Even as someone who was hit fairly hard by the change on two of my own kensai characters, I whole-heartedly support it taking place. Kensai, while harmless enough on its own, enabled bad things in synergy with others. Things that needn't be preserved.
Great post. +1 +Rep
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BegoneThoth
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Re: On Kensai

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:16 pm

Griefmaker wrote:Kensai was something fun since you did not have access to, nor need to worry about all the buffing and tons of wands and potions and the like everyone else has to because they want to be powerful. (Really, the fact that it is pretty much accepted if not required that one has to use so much magic that the Weave is torn is probably something that should be looked at by the Devs more than anything).

Kensai were innately less powerful because of it. That is fine, that is a choice a player makes when taking it.

Kensai as fighter, rogue, monk, barbarian was fine. Bring it back, leave it at that, don't add CoT, BG, ranger, paladin, and the like...that was silly.

This is an unfortunate decision.
Uh, they were MORE powerful, not LESS powerful.

Look at the barb/fight triple rage double weapon monstrosity in action and see if you feel it's 'less powerful.'
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Sab1
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Re: On Kensai

Post by Sab1 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:21 pm

Because most the drawbacks were taken away it evolved from being nearly impossible to play to being way too easy. Just like the PDK when it first came out. Basicly a power boost with little to no drawbacks.

Griefmaker
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Re: On Kensai

Post by Griefmaker » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:27 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Griefmaker wrote:Kensai was something fun since you did not have access to, nor need to worry about all the buffing and tons of wands and potions and the like everyone else has to because they want to be powerful. (Really, the fact that it is pretty much accepted if not required that one has to use so much magic that the Weave is torn is probably something that should be looked at by the Devs more than anything).

Kensai were innately less powerful because of it. That is fine, that is a choice a player makes when taking it.

Kensai as fighter, rogue, monk, barbarian was fine. Bring it back, leave it at that, don't add CoT, BG, ranger, paladin, and the like...that was silly.

This is an unfortunate decision.
Uh, they were MORE powerful, not LESS powerful.

Look at the barb/fight triple rage double weapon monstrosity in action and see if you feel it's 'less powerful.'
I played Version 1.0. They were less powerful. Still fun and that is what I would go back to. Version 2.0 were apparently less powerful too. Only version 3 was more powerful.

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Cortex
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Re: On Kensai

Post by Cortex » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:52 pm

Making a stretchy analogy, kensai in my eyes was meant to be equivalent of auto combos¹ for Arelith melee. The problem was that these 'auto combos' in fighting games aren't as good as normal combos, whereas the kensai was just as good (or just outright better), so a lot of people(including the ones that would be able to pull harder to play characters) started using kensai because it was easier and better.

The alternative would make it more akin to the analogy mentioned, where auto combos are weaker, but then it becomes a trap path and aaaa we've been over that a hundred times. Making perfect balance is just nigh impossible, and even if achieved, it will change the next update, and the next...


¹Auto combos are features in fighting games where you smash the same button for simplified, less efficient than well timed different button combos, but no less functional.
:)

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Dr. B
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Re: On Kensai

Post by Dr. B » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:25 pm

Oh, thank goodness. I am so relieved to see hear that this crashing disaster of a path has finally been put to sleep.

RIP, kensais.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: On Kensai

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:32 pm

Cortex wrote:Making a stretchy analogy, kensai in my eyes was meant to be equivalent of auto combos¹ for Arelith melee. The problem was that these 'auto combos' in fighting games aren't as good as normal combos, whereas the kensai was just as good (or just outright better), so a lot of people(including the ones that would be able to pull harder to play characters) started using kensai because it was easier and better.

The alternative would make it more akin to the analogy mentioned, where auto combos are weaker, but then it becomes a trap path and aaaa we've been over that a hundred times. Making perfect balance is just nigh impossible, and even if achieved, it will change the next update, and the next...


¹Auto combos are features in fighting games where you smash the same button for simplified, less efficient than well timed different button combos, but no less functional.
If Kenai is an auto combo what would you say is the magic series of arelith
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Undulat
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Re: On Kensai

Post by Undulat » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:34 pm

Hope you will give us a way to remake our existing characters without kensai, considering the amount of changes our characters have received over the course of the last few years. Especially when keeping in mind those of us making our character on the original kensai path and who don't play one of the powerbuilds made after the previous changes.
Last edited by Undulat on Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Cortex
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Re: On Kensai

Post by Cortex » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:43 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:If Kenai is an auto combo what would you say is the magic series of arelith
If you mean mages, assist spammers with variants between big combo strings and buffs/debuffs.
:)

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BegoneThoth
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Re: On Kensai

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:54 pm

Lol! Well, that's not what I meant at all but let's not derail the conversation.
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Astral
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Re: On Kensai

Post by Astral » Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:02 am

Checking in just now, wow.

On one hand, I saw it coming around when kensai + clarity pot and the current thundering rage became things around the same time, but I didnt expect a complete removal of the path. On the other hand, I agree with everything said as reasons for the removal and we may not see the impact of it yet but just like the removal of most infi casters, this is a great change.

I too have a kensai I would rebuild if given the opportunity, mostly just to remove Spot from the build and CC spellcraft instead or something like that. But personally I'd lie if I said I ~need~ a rebuild as the character (cot/wm) who could previously solo a bunch of relatively hard maps lvl-wise, will now be less reliable against casters but will still steamroll melee mobs all the same. This is a good change, and aint a game breaker imo.
Currently playing: Seth Xylo

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Taoen7
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Re: On Kensai

Post by Taoen7 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:42 pm

I wonder if I made the LAST KENSAI?

Salute!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRSaFqiNHng

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