On Kensai

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On Kensai

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:51 am

This tumultuous path has undergone many changes since its inception as a casual fighter path that eschewed magical items in exchange for permanent haste. The current state of the path is best described as an agglomeration of buffs, tweaks, and nerfs.

At its core, kensai was meant to represent a trade-off: a warrior that rejects magic and instead hones martial prowess. In practice, this meant giving up the use of magical consumables in exchange for passive, constant buffs.

A secondary design philosophy can be found in its appeal. Kensai were originally designed for players who preferred more casual play, who didn't want to track potions, wands, spell effects and instead focus on other things.

Somewhere along the way, the path lost sight of both ideas. The current kensai boons are powerful because they stack effectively with key potion buffs and planned gearing. Kensai are no longer the realm of the casual player trying out the game, but are instead picked up by players of all skill levels - many experienced players consider it a mandatory element in certain top 'builds' and character archetypes.

The fact that the path is currently overtuned isn't necessarily a deal-breaker; classes and paths that are too powerful can be brought back in line with well-considered balance tweaks. The issues were with the path itself, namely: 1) Kensai no longer fit its concept either mechanically or thematically, and 2) the core philosophies of the path posed intractable problems.

The second point merits elaboration. The core trade-off of kensai was giving up magical items (first all magical consumables but later just UMD trinkets) in exchange for passive buffs. This is problematic since it defines the power level of the kensai relative to other melee builds based on how useful or mandatory the server's magical consumables are.

The state of kensai became synonymous with the state of UMD. As melee classes became less and less dependent on UMD-based scrolls, kensai became all the more logical (perhaps mandatory) for fighter types. Similarly, the addition of powerful potions would benefit kensai most of all. Both factors had to be considered in all spell changes or crafting additions, limiting what the staff could do with consumables.

Furthermore, experience shows that a 'casual play' class leads to flawed outcomes. Either the end result is a path that is weaker overall, in which case it is regarded as a 'trap class' that might disillusion new players who were led into a dead end, or the path becomes an overly powerful tool that can be used by casual players but is more often employed by more experienced players to upend the power curve.

Even if the proper balance is found, the casual-play path will enjoy innate advantages due to ease of execution being advantageous in PvP and high-pressure situations.

Ultimately, we decided that the core vision of the path was lost along the way, and its current dynamics were unhealthy and unworkable. The path will therefore be phased out.

Kensai will no longer be selectable as a path. Some of the kensai's passive boons, namely saving throws and detection bonuses, will be removed to bring the path's power level in line, but otherwise existing kensai characters can continue to play as usual.
tl;dr: The existence of kensai posed continuous and difficult problems for server balance and development. Kensai will no longer be a selectable path. While existing kensai characters will lose some passive buffs, they can continue to play as legacy characters.
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Re: On Kensai

Post by Cortex » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:14 am

Image
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Re: On Kensai

Post by Dragonovith » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:33 am

I understand the reasoning for the path's removal, it's fair, alright. But was it really necessary to remove the buffs too? Given how the path was nerfed more and more over time and how even the wiki mentions Kensai being regarded as a weak class, this change looks too overkill to me.

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Re: On Kensai

Post by Hunter548 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:42 am

Dragonovith wrote:I understand the reasoning for the path's removal, it's fair, alright. But was it really necessary to remove the buffs too? Given how the path was nerfed more and more over time and how even the wiki mentions Kensai being regarded as a weak class, this change looks too overkill to me.
If you think that the class has been "nerfed more and more over time" or it's somehow weaker than it was a year ago, you're not paying attention. The class has lost FoM, sure, but it's gained a lot of things to make up for that in the same period.

They lost the saves vs spells because there's no real reason for them to have it: Via potions they have access to all the same immunities v spells that non-kensai characters have with the exception of Death Ward and Freedom of Movement. Deathward isn't much of a loss given most kensai are high fort anyways. In essence, they don't *need* the free saves vs spells, especially when so many of them take paladin, blackguard or CoT to acquire very high saves regardless, and can CC spellcraft like literally every other character does.

The detect skill bonus was given at a time that True Seeing worked as vanilla, by and large. Given that True Seeing is now significantly less reliable, giving up true seeing isn't as much of a loss. They don't particularly need a free detect boost, since all it does is add another area where they're largely an upgrade to non-kensai meleers.

That wiki description dates from before all the recent buffs, from when all they got was permahaste, when that was true.
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Re: On Kensai

Post by Hexgoblin » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:49 am

The information on the wiki is thus either outdated, stemming from the era of kensais being a borderline trap path prior to its initial rework, or not accurate.

For the last few months, the vast majority of warrior characters made are kensais, and for good reason at that. With UMD tools such as Timestop toned down, how well abilities like Thundering Rage scale with the kensai bonus APR, along with 6 universal saves vs spells being incredibly forgiving, kensai certainly aren't weak when compared to the conventional alternative.

Kensai thusly ended up in a position of very high reward for minimal effort, compared to what a more tactically inclined character build is able to achieve with what tools remain at their disposal. Tools that were pruned for a reason.

I reiterate, though. A rough 8/10 of warrior characters produced in the last two months being kensai, is not the result of the path being weak. If anything, it's a sign of unhealthy balance when a path designed to be beginner friendly, and catering to the more casual playerbase comes to seize the meta spotlight. As that'll lead to more vested players picking up the same tool, and doing rediculous things with it.
Last edited by Hexgoblin on Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: On Kensai

Post by Barradoor » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:54 am

Please don't make me do math again
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Re: On Kensai

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:02 am

Furthermore, experience shows that a 'casual play' class leads to flawed outcomes. Either the end result is a path that is weaker overall, in which case it is regarded as a 'trap class' that might disillusion new players who were led into a dead end, or the path becomes an overly powerful tool that can be used by casual players but is more often employed by more experienced players to upend the power curve.
Indeed. It's why many games balance for the top 5% rather then the other 95%.

Balancing only for the very best promotes healthy play.
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Re: On Kensai

Post by TimeAdept » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:03 am

Good post, very informative and shows a lot of wise decisionmaking and knowledge of system design from the devs. Shame kensai ended this way, but ultimately it became "Do you have UMD? No? Take Kensai."

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Re: On Kensai

Post by Undulat » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:10 am

Can existing kensai please get a rebuild?

I have a fighter made way back on the original kensai template, he's been changed so many times, would be great to be able to just remake him once and for all.

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Re: On Kensai

Post by Dragonovith » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:12 am

Pressing F here to pay my respects. Those buffs will be missed, but I'll find solace on that extra APR.

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Re: On Kensai

Post by Iceborn » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:54 am

Why is this even in Build and Mechanics and not elsewhere?!
Grah!

Anyway. The article in the wiki was updated. The only thing that was out of place was The Warning, which was a remnant from the time that most people were complaining that Kensai was a trap path.

I am actually sad to see kensai go. Perhaps one day in the distant future the class can be remade from scratch to fit in Arelith's unique balance without needing to be adjusted every two months afterwards.
Last edited by Iceborn on Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On Kensai

Post by Sab1 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:56 am

For me it just seems if it was going to go away, it should of been done awhile ago. Instead of all the tinkering and changes.

"Do you have UMD? No? Take Kensai.
Wasn't that the point? People who had forsaken magic and it's uses? Now it's being made to seem like this is a bad thing. Not like this mindset came as a shock I mean before it was speed/freedom etc. But kensai was always going to be for people who didn't want UMD.

I am not complaining about the extra attack and ac, those aren't bad abilities. But I am always of the mindset instead of changing and removing some abilites. It should of simply gone poof. Honestly I would prefer being able to use all magic instead of ac/ 1 attack and only mundane.

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Re: On Kensai

Post by flower » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:07 am

Can we get a rebuild?

Because loss of +6 saves is big impact when you cannot use spells to protect yourself from magic.

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Re: On Kensai

Post by flower » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:26 am

Why are existing characters taken away bonus savs when you already remove path as whole?

Did old SS characters lost their benefits (4th attack for example) when changes were made? If not, why kensai are?

This double stance on changes begins to irk me. Either alll get same or noone gets none. Removal of saves means for me if i do not rebuild (like 10 lvls) my character gets screwed by a single bigie spell. What kind of potion makes up for this? None of what i know of.

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Re: On Kensai

Post by Invader_Nym » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:54 am

Would add at least some of the saves back given that the whole purpose of the saves was to shore up the defenses of an otherwise stunted build. Kensai don't really have a reliable strategy for defending themselves against magical attacks.

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Re: On Kensai

Post by CookieMonster » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:11 am

I literally would not be suprised if at this point you just decided to remove the Bonus APR as well and told current Kensai Characters to suck it up and deal.

If you intended to remove the path as you have done, why not just leave the legacy characters as they were as they are literally the last of their kind. Instead, what you have done is a kick under the table with a note saying "I want you to roll your Kensai".

At the very least, we should be offered to have the Kensai Path removed from our characters and a remake of the build.
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Re: On Kensai

Post by Peppermint » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:32 am

Sab1 wrote:For me it just seems if it was going to go away, it should of been done awhile ago. Instead of all the tinkering and changes.
This was actually the initial plan a couple years back. I'd given the kensai a small host of buffs as a farewell package. I had been given the go ahead to remove kensai when I did--however, that was overturned at the last minute. And that lead us here.

Ultimately, doing it now was the right call. That path was never going to work.

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Re: On Kensai

Post by flower » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:31 am

This still does not answer why to nerf current characters when saying farewell to path.

When spellswords got changed old ones were Grandfathered not left for remake or roll.

If you nerfedAC or APr right but you took away passive things which helped kensai to withstand spells. Now you took away saves while still unable to deal with big part of spells (any summon for example).

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Re: On Kensai

Post by Nitro » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:43 am

flower wrote:This still does not answer why to nerf current characters when saying farewell to path.

When spellswords got changed old ones were Grandfathered not left for remake or roll.

If you nerfedAC or APr right but you took away passive things which helped kensai to withstand spells. Now you took away saves while still unable to deal with big part of spells (any summon for example).
Because old spellswords were not brutally overpowered compared to similar characters of similar classes. The extra attack of kensai alone is enough to push them into "dangerously cheesy" territory since it stacks with all other extra attacks, which can be further stacked with Barbarians extra attack and then a haste potion for good measure, with most of those attacks still being at really good AB.

Not to mention, that the +6 to saves versus spells is a holdover from when they couldn't use all potions, which they now can, so clarity's once again an option, and the +10 spot was before TS was nerfed into the ground so now they'd just be plain better detectors than non-kensai which is silly.

TLDR: They needed nerfing, they needed removal, they're still OP on builds built right for them.

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Re: On Kensai

Post by Baseili » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:59 pm

Let us not forget that single additional attack is in place of all ranged weapons but thrown, the ability to remove magic from others which includes the various sheathe spells, buffs and magic defenses and no form of counterplay against summons.

I can understand that kensai's advantages on certain builds can push them over the top but simply cutting it away has left us in a state of UMD or Die. Granted the path did not par up with having all the magical utility available, yet it offered something in return for those who didn't want to take a dip class or if the use of magic wouldn't fit their character.
Now, rather than having an alternative, non-dip builds are just disadvantaged which robs the server of a great deal of variety.

Are there any plans to sure up non-dip characters so they can at least function against their magic infused peers?

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Re: On Kensai

Post by Stath » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:00 pm

THE PEOPLE DEMAND A REBUILD TO UNTAKE KENSAI
AND TO STOP HAVING THEIR POSTS REMOVED WORDLESSLY BY MODERATORS WHO SEEM SOLELY INTERESTED IN DELETING COMMENTS BY MEMBERS OF THE SERVER COMMUNITY THEY DISLIKE, EVEN IF THE POSTS ARE NOT INFLAMMATORY IN SOME 1984 TIER CENSORSHIP PROGRAM IN ORDER TO SUPRESS THE UNDESIRABLE ELEMENTS OF THE PLAYERBASE IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE THE COMMUNITY MORE PALATABLE FOR BEAMDOG
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Re: On Kensai

Post by Lorkas » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:27 pm

Stath wrote:THE PEOPLE DEMAND A REBUILD TO UNTAKE KENSAI
AND TO STOP HAVING THEIR POSTS REMOVED WORDLESSLY BY MODERATORS WHO SEEM SOLELY INTERESTED IN DELETING COMMENTS BY MEMBERS OF THE SERVER COMMUNITY THEY DISLIKE, EVEN IF THE POSTS ARE NOT INFLAMMATORY IN SOME 1984 TIER CENSORSHIP PROGRAM IN ORDER TO SUPRESS THE UNDESIRABLE ELEMENTS OF THE PLAYERBASE IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE THE COMMUNITY MORE PALATABLE FOR BEAMDOG
I just checked the moderator logs, and no post by you has been deleted or edited by anyone since 21 February. Are you thinking of the post you made in the other kensai thread here?

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Re: On Kensai

Post by dominantdrowess » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:30 pm

Stath wrote:THE PEOPLE DEMAND A REBUILD TO UNTAKE KENSAI
AND TO STOP HAVING THEIR POSTS REMOVED WORDLESSLY BY MODERATORS WHO SEEM SOLELY INTERESTED IN DELETING COMMENTS BY MEMBERS OF THE SERVER COMMUNITY THEY DISLIKE, EVEN IF THE POSTS ARE NOT INFLAMMATORY IN SOME 1984 TIER CENSORSHIP PROGRAM IN ORDER TO SUPRESS THE UNDESIRABLE ELEMENTS OF THE PLAYERBASE IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE THE COMMUNITY MORE PALATABLE FOR BEAMDOG
As a "non-barbarian dual-wield" Kensai, I think I agree with the rebuild for people. :(

The Beamdog bit just feels ... paranoid to me.

I am not sure I'd do it-- but I came into Kensai expecting freedom when it still read 'Freedom' on the 2nd of February in game (even though it had long since been removed?) ... and a lot of things about this class have been deceptive or confusing along the way.

Being grandfathered seems weird to me ... especially post-nerfs.

I am sure with certain class combinations (possibly even my own? Maybe I lucked out?) ... it was probably OP. I've seen some crazy Kensai. But leaving people in a half-Hybrid of a nerfed class while nobody else is allowed to access it seems weird to me.

If it is balanced -- why is it being removed?

If it isn't balanced -- why are people being allowed to keep it?

Much like if I had ever had an artifact? I have no intention of abandoning kensai. Especially now that it's been removed -- It's part of history; and I love unique things: I have not been on Arelith long enough to know the other classes ... so I cannot really do more than ask these questions.
Last edited by dominantdrowess on Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: On Kensai

Post by Hexgoblin » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:57 pm

This does hit the demographic who just tagged kensai onto their otherwise pretty traditional fighter builds for fun pretty hard. I agree.

But something decisive had to be done about the fairly wide array of builds tailored around the path, some of which objectively destroyed any semblance of class balance.

Examples that immediately come to mind:
>barbarian/fighter with the half-orc double weapons and the full trio of rage modes
>barbarian/fighter/BG with divine might/shield and thundering rage
>barbarian/fighter/WM
>paladin/CoT/WM
>fighter/CoT/WM

With proper gear applied, and bearing the +6 saves into consideration, all of the above steamroll any conventional competition. There's been a drastic rise in representation for all of these builds, to the point where the majority of spontaneous PvP or IG tournaments I've been part of or spectated recently has revolved entirely around them.

Losing the +6 saves, which as someone stated above is a remnant from their days of being locked out of potions, means that all of these decisive hyper-offense builds still have the offensive power that made them attractive in the first place. But, they've received a pretty glaring dent in their defenses. Which was necessary.

Flat number enhancers shouldn't outweigh the efficiency of a strategic approach. One makes sacrifices to gain something. Kensai using all of the above builds didn't. When you(especially with runecrafted gear) pack saves that can't be trumped on anything but a 1 roll, and an offensive that endows several hundred damage per round which has a near guarantee of landing courtesy of the kensai bonus APR being a BAB reset -- then you're quite frankly heading down a steep, dangerous slope. In reality, the loss of UMD to a character that circumvents the need for it entirely is very negligible.

I do feel for the people who feel wronged by their traditional fighters losing their fun kensai perks. I do. I don't for those who base their mechanical impact around being a steamroller who on behalf of the sheer amount of damage presented, additional saving throws, along with various class ability contingencies aren't at all punished for a disfavorable engagement. Just by virtue of how little counterplay these builds allow.

As such, you could either do away with kensai, or impose changes on multiple classes individually, weakening them to accomodate the path. In light of that, I feel like cutting away the common denominator is the much more humane option.

Even as someone who was hit fairly hard by the change on two of my own kensai characters, I whole-heartedly support it taking place. Kensai, while harmless enough on its own, enabled bad things in synergy with others. Things that needn't be preserved.

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Re: On Kensai

Post by dominantdrowess » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:17 pm

Hexgoblin wrote:This does hit the demographic who just tagged kensai onto their otherwise pretty traditional fighter builds for fun pretty hard. I agree.

But something decisive had to be done about the fairly wide array of builds tailored around the path, some of which objectively destroyed any semblance of class balance.

Examples that immediately come to mind:
>barbarian/fighter with the half-orc double weapons and the full trio of rage modes
>barbarian/fighter/BG with divine might/shield and thundering rage
>barbarian/fighter/WM
>paladin/CoT/WM
>fighter/CoT/WM

With proper gear applied, and bearing the +6 saves into consideration, all of the above steamroll any conventional competition. There's been a drastic rise in representation for all of these builds, to the point where the majority of spontaneous PvP or IG tournaments I've been part of or spectated recently has revolved entirely around them.

Losing the +6 saves, which as someone stated above is a remnant from their days of being locked out of potions, means that all of these decisive hyper-offense builds still have the offensive power that made them attractive in the first place. But, they've received a pretty glaring dent in their defenses. Which was necessary.

Flat number enhancers shouldn't outweigh the efficiency of a strategic approach. One makes sacrifices to gain something. Kensai using all of the above builds didn't. When you(especially with runecrafted gear) pack saves that can't be trumped on anything but a 1 roll, and an offensive that endows several hundred damage per round which has a near guarantee of landing courtesy of the kensai bonus APR being a BAB reset -- then you're quite frankly heading down a steep, dangerous slope. In reality, the loss of UMD to a character that circumvents the need for it entirely is very negligible.

I do feel for the people who feel wronged by their traditional fighters losing their fun kensai perks. I do. I don't for those who base their mechanical impact around being a steamroller who on behalf of the sheer amount of damage presented, additional saving throws, along with various class ability contingencies aren't at all punished for a disfavorable engagement. Just by virtue of how little counterplay these builds allow.

As such, you could either do away with kensai, or impose changes on multiple classes individually, weakening them to accomodate the path. In light of that, I feel like cutting away the common denominator is the much more humane option.

Even as someone who was hit fairly hard by the change on two of my own kensai characters, I whole-heartedly support it taking place. Kensai, while harmless enough on its own, enabled bad things in synergy with others. Things that needn't be preserved.
Good post. I thought it required certain race combinations to work -- I was not aware Kensai was used on such a wide variety of builds. I was aware of half-orc dual-wielders and weapon masters. I was not aware of Paladins (a spell-casting class) or CoT's. The only reason I agree with the idea of rebuilds for people who want them though ... is because the path was removed.

The fact that the path was removed, implies a desire to get people out of it... and the only reason I'm not interested in one is precisely the reason I believe so many others are: It is no longer available.

I had always assumed that if they removed Kensai, I'd lose my extra attack, and gain wands. > . > This just feels awkward.

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