Need help with (Red) Wizard build

[Hendrak666]

Hi ,

i am a totally new player. Just leveled my first char to lvl 4.

I want to do a Wizard, especially a Red Wizard. Is there a Red Wizard faction on this server? Do they belong to the Arcane Tower i ve explored? A special deity for Red Wizards (i tend toward Gargauth with ESF Conjuration)? If a faction exists can i still play a generalist Red Wizard instead a specialicst (which is a bit contrary to the Lore).

I ve seen a build for an Elf with a dip of 4 Rog. Question: Isnt it better to go full Wizard for full CL 30 and better summons?

What build would you advice me to go? I wish to have different ESF to make use of the epic spell commands (tough not sure about ESF Illusion). Race would be human.

Cheers,
Hendrak

[Temperance]

Hey,

I've played a few wizards now and I can say without a doubt you'd want to stay away from specialization. The benefits are outweighed by the cons, barring yourself from casting from a certain school would be an exercise in frustration more than anything.

26 levels of wizard will prevent you from being dispelled by most PvE content, and your summons will be strong enough.

Also you want to stay away from the rogue dip. While it offers UMD and Tumble, you miss out on Discipline which is crucial if you want to be relevant against any sort of melee in a PvP setting. Without it, a character drastically under-powered from your own could possibly just continue to floor you. You'd want a dip of bard or ranger. Bard will net you UMD and Tumble, whilst ranger offers an additional spell focus feat. You can easily grab four epic spell foci with a ranger dip if you forgo evocation combo, giving you plenty to play with.

[Hendrak666]

Hey,

thanks for your advice. 4 rog dip isnt even worth it with evasion? whats the dip into ranger you suggest? ranger 5 gets a bonus feat or is that changed here?

what about the background? any active wizard factions ? red wizards, blackcloaks, Mystrans/Azuthians?

[Maladus]

I would dip Bard...Disc, Tumble, and UMD. Totes worth.

[Temperance]

The ranger dip is four levels, like bard. Three taken pre-epic, the last at 30 to round out your discipline. At ranger one, you get a bonus feat. This can be applied to get a FE /OR/ a spell focus.

[Beneidalus]

To answer your question, yes, a 5th ranger level in the epics, would net you another epic feat.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

Rogue dip is fine. PvP isn't anywhere near as big a deal as most build advice makes it out to be and in any case, if you can't crack off a disabling spell or Time Stop + nuke combo before they close to melee range, unlikely discipline will save you. Ranger or Bard might be technically optimal for those reasons but Rogue is absolutely fine, especially if the skills you get are more suited to your RP (which for a wizard they're likely to be).

Try not to be drawn into the builds that have four 8s and insane Con/Int - scratch a couple of points for worthwhile (10-12) stats elsewhere, especially in Str. You'll thank me as your inventory starts to fill up.

Whatever class you dip, it's 24/6, at 18, 19, 20, and 29 (or sometimes 30, depends on how your epic feats pan out).

Thay RP ebbs and flows but there's always some Thayvians around and some kind of Red Wizard factionalism in my experience.

[BegoneThoth]

Red Wizards always have a specialist school, it may be worth picking one at character generation, or just RP it.

[TheRagingGoblin]

Rogue dip is fine. PvP isn't anywhere near as big a deal as most build advice makes it out to be and in any case, if you can't crack off a disabling spell or Time Stop + nuke combo before they close to melee range, unlikely discipline will save you. Ranger or Bard might be technically optimal for those reasons but Rogue is absolutely fine, especially if the skills you get are more suited to your RP (which for a wizard they're likely to be).

Try not to be drawn into the builds that have four 8s and insane Con/Int - scratch a couple of points for worthwhile (10-12) stats elsewhere, especially in Str. You'll thank me as your inventory starts to fill up.

Whatever class you dip, it's 24/6, at 18, 19, 20, and 29 (or sometimes 30, depends on how your epic feats pan out).

Thay RP ebbs and flows but there's always some Thayvians around and some kind of Red Wizard factionalism in my experience.

Much of the advice presented here is simply wrong.

1) Do absolutely take a class that allows a Discipline dump. If you're not a strength focused build then you should have ESF Discipline. Even strength builds take it to help insure a TS-KD doesn't ruin their day.

Positioning for the melee type is easily solved through using a Timestop Scroll to move into position or sneaking into position to KD. KD isn't the only worry, there's also Disarm (you could end up losing your weapon) and called shot. You definitely cannot out range Called Shot.

By not taking discipline you are objectively worse in PvP than every other wizard who did as you have a gaping, easily exploitable weakness.

2) Minimising what you absolutely do not require and maximising (min/maxing) what you do is absolutely recommended. Strength does indeed get the spare points when they are available for quality of life purposes.

3) The class spread isn't usually 24/6, it's 26/4. Perhaps you typoed. For maximising saves the first three levels are often taken at 19, 20 and 21 with the final level taken at 29 or 30 for the remaining skill dump.

[TheRagingGoblin]

The most recommended wizard build is 26 wizard / 4 bard. Bard allows for Discipline, Use Magic Device and Bluff skill dumps. Most races will work but Red Wizards are humans, which is a perfectly fine (and optimal) race for a wizard.

Ranger is a solid dump class if you want the extra feat.

Do not neglect constitution. Even as a wizard you will want at least 400hp buffed at 30. That means at a minimum 16 con base or 14 con base + Toughness. Together with a 4 level bard dip that puts you at 398 (close enough).


Feats you will want include:

Extend spell
Maximise spell
Empower spell
Epic Skill Focus Discipline
Epic Dragon Knight


Having high int means an incredible amount of skill points.

Skills you will want:

Discipline
Concentration
Spellcraft
UMD (recommended, not available with ranger dip)



Consider the spell focii you wish to focus in. Stand outs include:

ESF Conjuration allows for -yoink and the easiest levelling experience available to you.
ESF Enchantment buffs many useful spells in both PVE/PVP and will make your character highly wanted for enchantments.
GSF Abjuration will mean the Shield spell makes you immune to Issaac's Lesser and Greater Missile Storms (commonly used spells by mobs and players)
ESF Evocation raises the DCs on the Bigby's Hand line of spells which are solid single target crowd control. It also removes the feedback damage on the Epic Spells Greater Ruin and Hellball.
ESF Transmutation allows for greater quality of life with teleport, a temporary portal source and many PCs will want you for your increased "zoo" buffs.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

Much of the advice presented here is simply wrong.

1) Do absolutely take a class that allows a Discipline dump. If you're not a strength focused build then you should have ESF Discipline. Even strength builds take it to help insure a TS-KD doesn't ruin their day.

Positioning for the melee type is easily solved through using a Timestop Scroll to move into position or sneaking into position to KD. KD isn't the only worry, there's also Disarm (you could end up losing your weapon) and called shot. You definitely cannot out range Called Shot.

By not taking discipline you are objectively worse in PvP than every other wizard who did as you have a gaping, easily exploitable weakness.

As I said, other advice is optimal, I'm trying to ensure OP doesn't get drawn into the common build advice trap of being led to believe suboptimal = nonviable. I've played an Epic Wizard 26/4 with the 4 being Rogue, with my share of PvP. Rogue dip is fine.

Point is that any way you slice it, even if we are talking PvP, usually if the caster doesn't win before the opponent closes, they lose. Called shot is niche so yeah nice to resist but not essential.

2) Minimising what you absolutely do not require and maximising (min/maxing) what you do is absolutely recommended. Strength does indeed get the spare points when they are available for quality of life purposes.

Again, just want the thread not to end up with tunnel vision - what you gain from starting on 20 Con/Int rather than 18 is pretty minor - and might not be worth having to roleplay debilitatingly low Charisma, Wisdom, Dexterity, AND Strength, not to mention the hideous carry weight. Suboptimal =/= nonviable.

3) The class spread isn't usually 24/6, it's 26/4. Perhaps you typoed. For maximising saves the first three levels are often taken at 19, 20 and 21 with the final level taken at 29 or 30 for the remaining skill dump.

Yeah, typo, I meant 26/4 - thanks for pointing out

(Also I'd say you only need one of Maximise/Empower and you don't need Extend, but all three are very nice to have if you are willing to sacrifice Craft Wand or Spell Focus feats)

[Hendrak666]

Thanks for the advice. Gives me some needed insight.

Next questions: which are good professions for a wizard (alchmey,tailoring,wood crafting) ?

Is there a discord channel for the server where i can ask short questions?

Thanks

[Ork]

I really don't think Discipline can be defined as a "PvP only" skill anymore. I've encountered a lot of low level monsters with knockdown recently (Mature Snappers, for example).

[Maladus]

Thanks for the advice. Gives me some needed insight.

Next questions: which are good professions for a wizard (alchmey,tailoring,wood crafting) ?

Is there a discord channel for the server where i can ask short questions?

Thanks

Professions sort of just depend on who you want to make money. Tailoring means you make it by crafting clothing for people while alchemy means you make essences, but they each have their own perks besides. Tailoring allows you to repair your robes, boots, belt, and cloak when they start to wear down. Alchemy allows you to make Spell Components for yourself.

[BegoneThoth]

Think about the spells you plan to cast and then determine if you actually want those metamagics.

In my opinion, empower has little use outside of Black Tentacles spam and perhaps being cute with transmutation augmented staff buffs.

Everything else you can just fine with maximize or a different spell.

[Xerah]

At the moment, it is very important to take at least 17 ranks of alchemy before you hit wizard level 13 (so you can make your own spell components). From there, 5 more ranks will allow you to make the best essences, and a 28 points will allow you to make a top end item that can be used in the end game rune crafting system.

That'll leave you with a good amount of points to use somewhere else.

[Hendrak666]

Thank you all. Helped me a lot.

[Neo]

Reading through this thread gave me an overview of what I should be aiming for in my wizard build. I actually started my PC fairly RP-oriented, dumping STR and WIS to start with 18 INT and 14 DEX, 12 CON and 14 CHA (currently working to getting CON at 14)a and picking Courteous Magocracy as a starter feat (seemed flavorful for a scholar type) plus a Spell Penetration (seemed useful). I have a few questions, if someone would be gracious enough to answer.

First off: how badly did I screw up my starting build? Can I recover? I've since reached level 12 and put 2 more points in INT, 1 point in CON and picked only Spell Foci feats (GSF Conjuration & Transmutation).

Second: I can see myself dipping as a ranger or bard, though from an RP perspective, it'd be a bit hard to justify. If/when I dip, should I have just hoarded my SP to dump into Discipline and UMD or can I just gradually invest into those skills as I progress?

[BegoneThoth]

I'd say pretty bad and yeah I'd start over. You need that int mod early. You're just pissing skill points into the wind without it because those arn't retroactive.

Without going into super micromanagement detail i'd do this if you want spell pen.

Class Race Wizard(27), Ranger(3), Gift Human

Abilies STR: 12
DEX: 8
CON: 18
WIS: 8
INT: 20 (28)
CHA: 8

30 Gift Human: (Quick to Master)
W 01: Wizard(1): Spell Focus: Conjuration, Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration, {Scribe Scroll}
W 02: Wizard(2)
W 03: Wizard(3): Extend Spell
W 04: Wizard(4): INT+1, (INT=21)
W 05: Wizard(5): Spell Focus: Abjuration
W 06: Wizard(6): Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration
W 07: Wizard(7)
W 08: Wizard(8): INT+1, (INT=22)
W 09: Wizard(9): FREE METAMAGIC OR SPELL FOCI OR CRAFT
W 10: Wizard(10): Spell Focus: Evocation
W 11: Wizard(11)
W 12: Wizard(12): INT+1, Greater Spell Focus: Evocation, (INT=23)
W 13: Wizard(13)
W 14: Wizard(14)
W 15: Wizard(15): FREE METAMAGIC OR SPELL FOCI OR CRAFT, FREE METAMAGIC OR SPELL FOCI OR CRAFT
W 16: Wizard(16): INT+1, (INT=24)
W 17: Wizard(17)
W 18: Wizard(18): Spell Penetration
W 19: Wizard(19)
W 20: Wizard(20): INT+1, Greater Spell Penetration, (INT=25)
W 21: Wizard(21): Epic Spell Focus: Conjuration
W 22: Wizard(22)
W 23: Wizard(23): Epic Spell: Dragon Knight
W 24: Wizard(24): INT+1, FREE METAMAGIC OR SPELL FOCI OR CRAFT OR EPIC SPELL PEN, (INT=26)
W 25: Wizard(25)
W 26: Wizard(26): Epic Spell: Greater Ruin
R 27: Ranger(1): Great Intelligence I, Epic Spell Focus: Evocation, {Dual Wield}, (INT=27)
R 28: Ranger(2): INT+1, (INT=28)
R 29: Ranger(3)
W 30: Wizard(27): Epic Spell Focus: Abjuration

Note that you can just drop spell pen for another spell foci or craft feats.

Maximize isn't to worth it, empower is only worth it if you really want to spam empowered black tentacles for that bizarre bug.

Your AC is pretty trash so no reason to get EMA; not much you can do here you're going to die if in melee so stay out of melee. There is a high-ac wizard you can play that's 26/4 bard but it gets less feats and has one less CL.

Note that I consider Conj and Abjuration required, evocation much less so but it's on there anyway, drop that and hellball/ruin before you drop anything else in this build, IMO.

ONLY put points into disc on your ranger level, not one point before. Always float at least one skill point a level.

Ranger also lets you use divine wands, so stock up on NEP wands, good stuff.

[Neo]

Ouch! All those hours wasted... I suppose I could start over, but I'd have to come up with a completely different character idea. Though having to RP that 8 CHA is a bit painful.
As a side-note, is starting as a human a must or can I pick another race without too much of a detriment to the build?

Stages of grief edit (bargaining edition): I've decided to keep going with my current character. I'm getting that 28 INT, but as for my CON and STR... well, what's the worst that can happen at 12 CON? Surely I can mitigate that with enchantments and buffs?

[Ork]

Ouch! All those hours wasted... I suppose I could start over, but I'd have to come up with a completely different character idea. Though having to RP that 8 CHA is a bit painful.
As a side-note, is starting as a human a must or can I pick another race without too much of a detriment to the build?

I'd take any advise in the build & mechanics forum with a grain of salt. I guarantee most players can do well with even a gift of humility wizard on Arelith.

[BegoneThoth]

That's because summons can carry you and get no benefit from your gear or stats; you can solo most of the content on the server with an 18 final int wizard and epic conj.

Not the point of this though, being a "good build" has other advantages.

Lastly, starting over now will simply be less painful then trying to do it later, or just regretting not starting over once you're at 30 and the full brunt of the sub optimal build choices compound and you are really bad off minus the summons every caster gets.

[Neo]

Can you offset a low STR/CON with enchantments? Or is it crucial for survival? I can still grab most of the required Foci and Metamagic feats at this point. What I'm getting at, is there any way to offset my current disadvantage, without remaking my character? My main issues with remaking my character (besides the obvious grind to get to the level I was) are:

a) Seems like I'd have an identical character to everyone else who is optimizing.
b) I have to justify RP-wise why my character is a clumsy, absent-minded jerk due to stat dump.
c) Totally ruins the story I had in mind for my character.

[BegoneThoth]

Str you can offset with a spell if you need carry weight.

Con you need as much as you can get as its your only passive defense.

Your real downside if the build you have is the wasted feats you took and wasted initial stat pool. Note that the difference between the build I recommended and yours is going to be around 25% or more HP plus more fort. That's a lot.

You will not have an identical character, express yourself through the free wide open feats you have. Conj is pretty much mandatory due to good summons which you need, dragon knight lets you solo bosses and drop people in pvp, and I strongly advise abj for the dispels and ward commands. Feel free to drop Evo and hellball/ruin and get another spell foci or all the crafting feats. You have a ton of options, and remember spell foci get you free infinite spells.

Rest is up to you really. But if you follow my route you'll end up with identical RP and just higher numbers and more options when you do fight.

[BegoneThoth]

Your also do not have to RP being a clumsy clod. That's a myth. 10 in a stat is average, being slightly below average at something means absolutely nothing. Nothing at all.

RP how you want. If someone is busting your Pufferfish because they think you're too polite for someone with 8 cha tell them to pound sand and worry about the parts of your character that matter, such as being a Red Wizard covered in tats.

A three dimensional character has aspects and angles not able to be represented by stat numbers and alignments. Just keep that in mind.