Bard

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Dr_Hazard89
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Bard

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:12 pm

Any advice on building a bard that entirely focuses on bardsong? I've never done one before and would appreciate any suggestions or ideas people have ..

Thanks :3
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

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A Streetcar Named Desire
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Re: Bard

Post by A Streetcar Named Desire » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:21 pm

It's not too difficult to reach 100 bard song with the items available.

Take artist, and both skill focuses. You might enjoy lingering song but can ignore it if you want to be more patient for lasting inspiration.

Max charisma as high as possible, then make your second stat based on what you want to do. My bard is intelligence/charisma based, making her worse at combat than others, but better at the RP things I wanted her to do. Con/Charisma, Dex/Charisma, Str/Charisma are probably far more optimal choices.

If you're going for the best possible bard song, you won't be able to multiclass. If multi-classing, you can take it into mind with feat/charisma allocation as you'll need 5 less points per level lost of bard. Paladin/Fighter are good compliments, or Blackguard if evil for more warrior oriented bards.
"Every performance is like a ghost -- it's there and then it's gone."

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Lorkas
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Re: Bard

Post by Lorkas » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:55 pm

A Streetcar Named Desire wrote:It's not too difficult to reach 100 bard song with the items available.
I wouldn't exactly say it's easy--as near as I can tell you have to spend a gift on it, 2 general feats and an epic feat, go for a +15 CHA mod (making you useless at combat in every other respect) and dedicate every piece of gear you have to perform (including your mainhand and offhand). In particular the +15 CHA mod on a non-sorcerer is kinda hard to swallow. It is doable, but I would absolutely describe it as difficult when the fact that you have to level a character who can't melee, attack at a range, or use offensive or summon magic at a sufficient level.
A Streetcar Named Desire wrote:If you're going for the best possible bard song, you won't be able to multiclass.
Slight correction: you could multiclass as a Master Harper.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Bard

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:00 pm

I'd stop at 25, 25 bard 5 fighter is pretty good, and getting 75 preform is way easier then 100, and the bardsong doesn't even improve that much.
\

Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Bard

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:55 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:I'd stop at 25, 25 bard 5 fighter is pretty good, and getting 75 preform is way easier then 100, and the bardsong doesn't even improve that much.
I would second this. With Curse Song and Lasting Inspiration Bard song, and a fighter dip, bards can be easily hold their own.

Bards become more tricky if you want to be a dex-build, not a str-build. You still have a lot of innate power through Song and spells, but I don't know if I'd want to take that much bard if I was dex-based.
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A Streetcar Named Desire
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Re: Bard

Post by A Streetcar Named Desire » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:01 pm

Lorkas wrote:
A Streetcar Named Desire wrote:It's not too difficult to reach 100 bard song with the items available.
I wouldn't exactly say it's easy--as near as I can tell you have to spend a gift on it, 2 general feats and an epic feat, go for a +15 CHA mod (making you useless at combat in every other respect) and dedicate every piece of gear you have to perform (including your mainhand and offhand). In particular the +15 CHA mod on a non-sorcerer is kinda hard to swallow. It is doable, but I would absolutely describe it as difficult when the fact that you have to level a character who can't melee, attack at a range, or use offensive or summon magic at a sufficient level.
A Streetcar Named Desire wrote:If you're going for the best possible bard song, you won't be able to multiclass.
Slight correction: you could multiclass as a Master Harper.
Forgot about that one, thanks. And good point. I can second your criticisms, my bard is pretty much perform/cha-focused and struggles in combat for it.
"Every performance is like a ghost -- it's there and then it's gone."

Astral
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Re: Bard

Post by Astral » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:33 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote:I'd stop at 25, 25 bard 5 fighter is pretty good, and getting 75 preform is way easier then 100, and the bardsong doesn't even improve that much.
I would second this. With Curse Song and Lasting Inspiration Bard song, and a fighter dip, bards can be easily hold their own.

Bards become more tricky if you want to be a dex-build, not a str-build. You still have a lot of innate power through Song and spells, but I don't know if I'd want to take that much bard if I was dex-based.
I third this. 25 lvls are the optimal investment. 5 lvls in paladin, blackguard, paragon, fighter, barbarian,etc. Still the best support in the game.
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Cuchilla
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Re: Bard

Post by Cuchilla » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:42 pm

Pro/con lasting inspiration: You might consider not taking lasting inspiration. Without it, and only with lingering song, you will be able to use curse song several times. Which might deal out a lot of damage. You'll however also have to use bardsong to buff your party.

Or did I get something wrong?

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susitsu
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Re: Bard

Post by susitsu » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:53 pm

As a side-note, if you want to be a "support" and "bard," there's always PDK. Not quite specifying "bard heavy."

TimeAdept
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Re: Bard

Post by TimeAdept » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:05 pm

Cuchilla wrote:Pro/con lasting inspiration: You might consider not taking lasting inspiration. Without it, and only with lingering song, you will be able to use curse song several times. Which might deal out a lot of damage. You'll however also have to use bardsong to buff your party.

Or did I get something wrong?
Theoretically, yes, it lets you do the damage portion of curse song more, but that's not really why you're curse songing.

Lasting Inspiration IS the class at epic levels - if you don't take it, you're doing the equivalent of refusing to take any epic spell foci on a wizard, or making a 16 BG but not taking Epic Fiend. If you're a 20 bard+, you should always take it, as the benefits from your song lasting 10x as long far outweighs not being able to do 40ish damage every 10 rounds.

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Re: Bard

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:28 am

A bard song with Lasting Inspiration is probably the best party buff in the game.
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Cuchilla
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Re: Bard

Post by Cuchilla » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:59 pm

TimeAdept wrote:as the benefits from your song lasting 10x as long far outweighs not being able to do 40ish damage every 10 rounds.
Still not entirely convinced. Allow me some calculations:

1) I think it is more than 40ish damage every 10 rounds. It is (number of remaining enemies) x 40ish damage. So the total damage will rather be something in between 40ish and 240ish (max 6 spawns x 40 damage).

2) There are a few spawns in the game which are only vulnerable to sonic damage, which means you can use curse song once with Lasting inspiration, but several times with only lingering song. Quite nifty if someone forgot to bring sonic essences.

3) You'll probably never need 20+ songs with Lasting Inspiration. As they last almost "forever", you'll need like 3-5 songs for buffs of your party (until you need to rest). And if you're lucky, you'll get the chance to have damage effects of like 10 curse songs.

But hey, it's not a biggy. Bard song is nifty whatever you do.

Aloise "Lois", Biarray "Ray", Uniethrade. INACTIVE: Ivory Bushdiggger DEAD: Cuchilla. Beliat, Clyasy. Cristyn. Fadriatta. Fraya Stensamler (Chief Librarian). Goirin. Greensleeves. Gwydynya. Hilda. Kaxandra. Trista. Willisa.


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Teshil
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Re: Bard

Post by Teshil » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:07 pm

No reason bards who qualify should ever skip Lasting Inspiration.

TimeAdept
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Re: Bard

Post by TimeAdept » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:31 pm

Cuchilla wrote:
TimeAdept wrote:as the benefits from your song lasting 10x as long far outweighs not being able to do 40ish damage every 10 rounds.
Still not entirely convinced. Allow me some calculations:

1) I think it is more than 40ish damage every 10 rounds. It is (number of remaining enemies) x 40ish damage. So the total damage will rather be something in between 40ish and 240ish (max 6 spawns x 40 damage).

2) There are a few spawns in the game which are only vulnerable to sonic damage, which means you can use curse song once with Lasting inspiration, but several times with only lingering song. Quite nifty if someone forgot to bring sonic essences.

3) You'll probably never need 20+ songs with Lasting Inspiration. As they last almost "forever", you'll need like 3-5 songs for buffs of your party (until you need to rest). And if you're lucky, you'll get the chance to have damage effects of like 10 curse songs.

But hey, it's not a biggy. Bard song is nifty whatever you do.
It is a big deal. Please don't convince people to not take Lasting Inspiration. If there was a feat that made your spells last 10 times longer without maximize, you'd take it without thinking. Not taking Lasting Inspiration is objectively like... top 3 bad decisions you could make as an epic bard.

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Re: Bard

Post by Xerah » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:35 pm

TimeAdept wrote:It is a big deal. Please don't convince people to not take Lasting Inspiration. If there was a feat that made your spells last 10 times longer without maximize, you'd take it without thinking. Not taking Lasting Inspiration is objectively like... top 3 bad decisions you could make as an epic bard.
I was talking to someone recently who was going to have unlimited bard song, and I was thinking if it would be okay to skip lasting inspiration. And, I still don't think it is even with that. Lasting is one of the single best feats in the game if you qualify to take it.
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Ork
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Re: Bard

Post by Ork » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:16 pm

You really do get diminishing returns after Bard level 16. There's rarely any reason to go beyond 20 for lasting inspiration.

The difference between Bard Song 20 and Bard Song 30 is 1 AC, 20 Temp HP and +11 Skill Bonus. Not terribly worth the investment.

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Teshil
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Re: Bard

Post by Teshil » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:30 am

The main disadvantage is that at 20 bard you’ll get dispelled all the time. Otherwise it may indeed be better to have 10 levels in other classes

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Re: Bard

Post by Huelander » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:55 pm

Points of advice:

Song:
- Lasting Inspiration + Curse Song = New tactical dimension. No reason not to acquire this when investing in Bard! As you're no longer stuck using your songs for buffing all the time, so you can go and debuff the enemy significantly with practically every major confrontation until resting. Coupled with Bard Song at level 20 you create a 7 AC/AB difference

Magic:
- I personally find no reason to go beyond 20 bard unless the dispels get on your nerves. However mixing Iron Horn and Silence makes for an excellent way of dealing with mages already. The Bard offers these along with haste, invisibility, dismissal, grease, stat buffs and some status-recovery spells. It all depends on choosing the right combination given your limited spell choices.

Skill:
- Mixing Taunt with the two Songs is also something to consider, as their concentration is sapped and your taunt is bolstered. This makes Taunt more likely to succeed to create an even larger AC debuff for them, and some spell failure. Of course, Bard's access to Tumble and UMD should not be forgotten.

Multi-class:
- Given you reach peak performance with 20 levels of bard. You can start considering what is missing and how can it be compensated with the remaining 10 levels. And the answer is; Competing in melee is what the Bard is missing. It has no good armor or weapon proficiency, no high BAB or HP rates, and its magical edge can be substituted with magic wands by melee characters. So you're going to need to bolster the advantages given to you by your songs by investing in some combat oriented classes, in order to compete. Unless this goes against your character concept, of course.

I'll list a few good Multi-classes for the Bard, but you can go figure out for yourself why they're good; Paladin, Blackguard, Fighter, Knight (Any), Harper Paragon, Master Harper, Weapon Master.
Last edited by Huelander on Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Teshil
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Re: Bard

Post by Teshil » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:17 pm

Or, with the new True Seeing changes, you could go 20 bard 10 shadowdancer. It can take epic dodge at the last sd level, and bard song raises hide/ms while curse lowers spotters' spot/listen.

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Re: Bard

Post by Astral » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:46 am

Teshil wrote:Or, with the new True Seeing changes, you could go 20 bard 10 shadowdancer. It can take epic dodge at the last sd level, and bard song raises hide/ms while curse lowers spotters' spot/listen.
This only means you are never getting killed, ever. Which aint nothing. But if you're going for a support build and the majority of it only supports you, while not giving you any offensive capability to carry the fight, its going to do a lot of nothing except using bardsong.
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Re: Bard

Post by TheRagingGoblin » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:11 pm

#1 rule of playing a bard. Never go dexterity focused. Go strength!

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Teshil
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Re: Bard

Post by Teshil » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:10 pm

That's certainly true, almost no way you'll kill others directly. But it sure is nice to be invincible! Besides, killing others directly is what your bard-song-buffed party is for. I like defense over offense. Somehow you can still sing in hide.

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Thanatosis
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Re: Bard

Post by Thanatosis » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:20 pm

Teshil wrote:Somehow you can still sing in hide.
wait..............hide and move silent are separate skills...............have i cracked the code?
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Teshil
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Re: Bard

Post by Teshil » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:22 pm

Genius!
*resumes trying to find the invisible singer*

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