Sorcerer gameplay

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telmarael
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Sorcerer gameplay

Post by telmarael » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:28 am

Good time of the day to anyone reading this!

As I've returned from a rather long break, my old character seems.. to miss all the old connections to the world and I've decided to roll it.

As this indefinitely leads to the creation of a new character, the sorcerer class has attracted my attention. Although, due to my plans on the roleplay for this character, I've decided to go for a rather strange array of spell focuses. Due to the lack of feats, compared to the wizard, I can only take 3 focuses, and they will be divination, abjuration and.. necromancy.

The question itself: is it even a sub-optimal choice? Going through the class description and comparing it to my experience as a wizard, it seems that I'm going to have a lot of troubles going through the early levels (up until level 15, actually), and I'm not completely sure that the character is going to be consistent when reaches the epics (corpse animation is somethings... definitely frowned upon by the most of the server population). Thus, I've decided to ask for help in making a build that might be atleast sub-optimal for playing here. As far as I've seen, my wizard doesn't really last long enough before running out of spells If she doesn't have an elemental summoned, and with no conjuration focus the summoned elementals are going to be considerably weaker.

Any help and advice from someone who has atleast partially experienced such play is most welcome and appreciated!

I know that the cleric might actually be more consistent with those spell focuses, but I just couldn't come up with any relevant background for RP purposes, and especially the deity choice.

P.S.: out of topic - is there some atleast approx date for the NWNEE release?
- "I would rather not touch this shiny pile of gold", said her conscience
*sounds of explosion*

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miesny_jez
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Re: Sorcerer gameplay

Post by miesny_jez » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:14 am

You have IGMS... You will be fine :)

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One Two Three Five
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Re: Sorcerer gameplay

Post by One Two Three Five » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:17 am

is it even a sub-optimal choice
Yes. Conjuration is 'best' for PvE content (and dragon knight is apparently decent in pvp, but whatever there.)

If you're relying on undead as a sorc, you're not going to have a good time for a while- and infact wont get your first undead summon till sorc level 10. By all means go for it. It's suboptimal but playable so long as you don't shy away from using the normal summons.

Also, if you're worried about getting ganked over the undead, just play in the UD and get ganked over something else. (I'm joking.)
The devil does not need any more advocates
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.

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telmarael
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Re: Sorcerer gameplay

Post by telmarael » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:23 am

One Two Three Five wrote:
is it even a sub-optimal choice
Yes. Conjuration is 'best' for PvE content (and dragon knight is apparently decent in pvp, but whatever there.)

If you're relying on undead as a sorc, you're not going to have a good time for a while- and infact wont get your first undead summon till sorc level 10. By all means go for it. It's suboptimal but playable so long as you don't shy away from using the normal summons.

Also, if you're worried about getting ganked over the undead, just play in the UD and get ganked over something else. (I'm joking.)
That's exactly the kind of answer I wanted to hear :D And yes, using the normal summons is unavoidable, as solo play is the most common thing for me on any of my characters - the time gap makes it rather hard, and the server is most active when I have 04:00-06:00...

I actually expect to be ganked over the undead to some extent, but not stomped by high-level paladins though :? I want the game to be fun, and some non-frustrating ammount of pvp definitely adds to it

I'm not to familiar with the PVP 'meta' for an arcanist here, could you please recommend me some 5+ circle spells that are a -must- to have as a sorc, as wizard doesn't apparently have a problem of choice
- "I would rather not touch this shiny pile of gold", said her conscience
*sounds of explosion*

Kirito
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Re: Sorcerer gameplay

Post by Kirito » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:54 am

P.S.: out of topic - is there some atleast approx date for the NWNEE release?
Short answer is no,

long answer is you can already play EE (and play on arelith) using the headstart version of EE which is now available on steam as well as via beamdog.

You get washed up on the frozen island of skal and can have fun exploring it from levels 3-10+.

It's a bit hit an miss as to whether there's anyone there, but it's very accessible to solo.

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miesny_jez
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Re: Sorcerer gameplay

Post by miesny_jez » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:33 am

Ok I think I have a little bit more time..

GUIDE TO SORCERING LIKE A PRO! :twisted:

First of all I would like to advise You to NOT build for spell focuses when building a Sorcerer or limit Yourself to maximum of 2 fully focused spell foci.

Taking 3x spell foci burns out 6 talents for Your character .. which leaves You with 1 or 2 (if human) available to choose from.

Whereas this may sound a bit contra-productive approach, realize that the Sorcerer class is not designed for a DC caster. Best DC casters are Wizards (well and Druids.. sort of) due to their Free Spell Foci feats.. additionally they need it.. cause they do not have a lot of spell casts and each spell has to "count".

What Sorcerers need is METAMAGIC feats because this allows You to actually cast more and adopt fluidly to a situation during the battle.

Compare a situation:
Sorc with GSF:Enchant VS Sorc with Silent+Empower

base 7 casts leaves a situation like this:
GSF Sorc = 7 casts of circle 5 spell = 5 casts of Hold Monster
SE Sorc = 7+7+7 casts of circle 5 spell = 21 casts of Hold Monster

Now You could argue that the GSF Sorc has greater chance of hitting the monster with Hold due to higher DCs... but if You will run into a group of Monsters/PCs who have High Will saves (and hell You will run into them) You are essentially making 1 spell of circle5 useless to cast and leaving all other spells from circle5 only 7 casts.
In case of the Metamagic Sorcerer - even if Your 1 spell of circle5 is not effective... You still have 21 casts of other spells!
On top of that You can fluidly change which of the spells You will cast more in this situation a = flexibility.

Lets say the target has 50fort/10Rflx/50Will and our Sorcerer has 1 spell at circle5 which can target Rflx saves

GSF Sorc = 7 casts of a spell which can target the 10 Rflx
MetaSorc = 21 casts of a spell which can target the 10 Rflx

Now lets dig more into this..
You could say.. but what about higher circle spells which target RFLX saves? Why not cast them instead of our circle5 spell?

The answer is .. Sorcerers are not Wizards! You may not have a Circle 6/7/8/9 spell which is targeting a RFLX save because You chosen something else.. see the point? You don't have a lot of spells to choose from so focus on maximizing Your casting capabilities with those which You choose.

Now to spell foci choices on a Sorcerer.
Unless RP-based decisions (which are important!) and assuming You take into account what I written above You would normally want to focus only on two types of spell foci on a Sorcerer:
1) which makes things go boom, (Evo, Necro, Illusion)
2) which makes things go away from You. (Enchant, Conjur, Illusion, Necro)

Sorcerer has to be "smart" in their spell choices as You want to cover as much saves as possible with the limited spell foci You will choose.. thus spell schools which cover multiple saves are of huge benefit to You.
Focuses which cover multi-saves are:
  • Illusion (Will, Fort, Reflex)
    Necro (Fort, Will)
    Evo (Rflx, Will)
Focuses which do not cover multi saves are:
  • Enchant (Will, Fort... sort of)
    Conjur (Rflx)
    Divination (Fort)
Therefore the actual most useful spell foci for a sorcerer are: Evocation and Illusion as they allow You to attack any save with maximum effectivness. Runner up choice: Evo + Necro.

As for the rest of the focies:
Enchant - targeting only Willl.. well Mass Blind is there too, but there are far more better choices at that spell circle (/wave Incendinary Cloud).
Conjur - the Soloing school. Yes, You will miss the stronger summons but You can live without them! And at higher levels... You will be partying and having Your own personal tanking Melee. I can assure You that 7x Meteor Swarm (which is party friendly!) will be much more helpful to a party then a 7x SummonX (Acid Fog slow is saveless).
Divination - well.. with Arelith changes it is actually a valid school to choose from, the PW:S and PW:D can be useful.. though they share same symptomps as Enchant spells.. if the target has high Fort You can forget about those spells from Your spell choice.

Now I am sure some of the readers are screaming at me.. why not take Abjuration on a Sorcerer?

The answer is: You don't have to!
With Silent Spell and Greater Spell Breach You can breach 14x 4 defensive spells including Mantle, Shadow Shield, Shield, Spell Resistance, Protection from Spells, Energy Buffer.. the remaining defensive spells are effectively of no concern to You as a Sorcerer as they do not stop You from damaging/killing Your target.

Abjuration foci is of concern to You only if You are interested in Dispelling (see point about breaching) or are scared of someone IGMSing You.. but hell You have IGMS too! And You have a very high chance of having more IGMS then Your enemy thanks to multiple metamagics.. if You take Quicken You can even start sooner then your enemy because You are ready to fling 2x spells per round from the moment You stop resting, wheres Your enemy (usually) have to precast a Haste before that.

With that said .. should You put points in CH?
By all means YES! Unless... You want to be an IGMS bot, but if You are intending to be an IGMS bot.. just pickup Flameborn and go CH20/ full CON.

Now lets get to the meat of things - spell choices!

These are KEY spells You will want to have on Your Sorcerer whether You have a spell foci or not.
These would be:
  • BBoD [9]
  • Time Stop [9] (no brainer)
  • Shapechange [9](HIGHLY ADVISED)
  • Incedinary [8]
  • Bigby bullrush [8]
  • Bigby Grasping [7] OR Bigby Crushing [9]
  • Spell Mantle [7] (if You took Empower), Greater Spell Mantle [9] (if not)
  • Shadow Shield [7]
  • IGMS [6] (no brainer again)
  • Greater Spell Breach [6] is better then MORDS (who needs dispels anyway!)
  • Shades [6]
  • Mass Haste [6]
  • True Seeing [6]
  • Mestils Acid Sheet [5]
  • Mind Fog[5]
  • Lesser Mind Blank [5] OR Mind Blank [8]
  • Ice Storm [4]
  • Improved Invisibility [4]
  • Slow [3]
  • Flame Arrow [3]
  • Negative Burst [3]
  • Ultravision [2] - if You manage to squeeze it in
  • Web [2] OR Greater Shadow Conjuration [5] - especially if You took Illusion foci!
  • Grease [1]
  • Expedious Retreat [1]
Those are the KEY spells for a full lvl30 sorcerer. Key because they will allow Your character to be flexible enough to handle any type of an encounter (PVP or PVE) with leaving enough damage spells to be an effective damage dealer.

Rest of the spell choices I suggest to take whatever You find most appealing, but I can assure You that when having those above You will have enough tools to handle any situation in game.

Now as for Your proposed build of a Sorcerer who focuses on Abjuration/Divination/Necromancy.

Will it be playable? Yes it will be fully playable
Will it be able to Solo? Yes, if You choose the right spells and won't shy from using a summonXX spell to help Yourself
Will You be Ganked because of using Undeads? .. I suspect NO, but You will certainly have lots of hostile RP situations (which is good), just play along and remeber that majority of players in Arelith prefer a Good Story from a simple PvP - kill situations.

As for which Metamagic feats to choose from.
First of all.. stop looking at the feats what they do.. seriously. Look at what SPELL SLOTS they open up for You!
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Metamagic

You have +1 (silent, still, extend), +2 (Empower), +3 (Maximise) and +4 (Quicken) available to You.
If You have 4 spare feats... well You are lucky and can choose the whole set.
But if You have 3 feats (most common situation) it will be usually: Maximise, Empower, Extend

Word about Extend VS Silent:
Silent is actually far better then Extend in terms of spell slots.. as You can Silent almost every spell, whereas You can Extend only some of them. But Extend effect is much more useful then Silent in most situations.. that's Your choice effectively whatever You are more comfortable with. I tried once Extend, once Silent.. and everytime I regretted I didn't have the other one. Both of them are good

Empower vs Maximise:
Maximise is stronger.. there is no point in arguing that, BUT Empower opens up more slots AND gives You a stronger Mantle for the cost of weaker one so its also a VERY valid choice. I usually build to take both if possible.

Quicken:
Well.. its nice but You can live without it. With a MetaSorc build AutoQuicken feats are VERY STRONG due to how many spells You can actually cast. Its more like a PVP talent then a PVE one. If You are expecting lot of PVP engagments.. I suggest to consider this and AutoQuicken very seriously.

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Seekeepeek
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Re: Sorcerer gameplay

Post by Seekeepeek » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:39 am

miesny_jez wrote: [*] Shapechange [9](HIGHLY ADVISED)
From my experience when playing a sorcerer way back then you should avoid shapechaging at all cost. back then it ruined you stored spells pretty bad. You'd start out with 5 lvl nine spells and after a shapechange you'd have half. could use it as a last option tho.

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Sockss
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Re: Sorcerer gameplay

Post by Sockss » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:45 pm

Please do take abjuration, dispelling is very good. Regardless of whether you have more casts of breaches, that takes time, and you really want to reduce the amount of time taken in any engagement. Breaching things that get in the way of you hurting someone is all well and good, but dispelling things which stop someone hurting you is pretty good too.

Quicken is a waste of a feat considering your opener can be gsanc and haste, if pressured.

Shapechange don't take, you can use a scroll if you need it.
Bbod don't take, go for summon ix if you want to solo. It's function is largely replaced by edk.
Take a 9th circle DC spell appropriate to your sf's and mords instead.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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telmarael
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Re: Sorcerer gameplay

Post by telmarael » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:49 am

Wow, thanks everyone for answering here! I've actually started making the character sheet already, and now I definitely know what to adjust\add.
Got a question on the epic spells though and on necromancy ESF. I'm planning to take the mummy dust, and wonder how does it actually interract with the create undead spells? There's nothing written in the Wiki, atleast as far as I've noticed, about the interaction of that epic spell with usual undead summoning spells. Does it affect it at all? I mean, If I take mummy dust, am I still going to get lvl16 mummies from create undead? (that would suck hard)

And on SF necro... is it even -useful-? What does it give me if I want to focus on this school of magic apart from DC on spells. I mean. It sucks. It has no bonuses the other SFs give Utility and RP wise.

And, as far as I'm concerned, when artifacts are no longer a thing, maxing out all of your saves is a lot harder for most of the players, DC spells now can actually be worth casting in a fight? (not in PVE, of course...)
- "I would rather not touch this shiny pile of gold", said her conscience
*sounds of explosion*

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Sockss
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Re: Sorcerer gameplay

Post by Sockss » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:59 pm

Each level of necromancy focus will give the following bonuses to your undead:

+1 to all skills the summon has ranks in
+1 hit die worth of hit points (meaning, as if the creature was 1 level above in terms of HP, both adding base class HP and CON modifier).
+1 AB
+1 Damage
+1 AC
+1 Universal Saves

There's been a lot of monster adjustment recently which has lowered pve saves in a bunch of places, so it's more viable to cast DC spells in pve - however that won't ever be your primary method of farming because you won't have the spell slots! It's very good as a panic button however.

For pvp it depends wildly who you're fighting and their level of gear. With artefacts removed, 5%'ing or runecrafting +saves to gear will become common place. However it'll take a long time to max it out (espescially if muling rules are enforced). In general you should find people have lower saves than before.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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CharlesK
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Re: Sorcerer gameplay

Post by CharlesK » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:30 am

Totally unrelated to the thread...
But I HATE your animated bug. I visit the forums infrequently and forget about it, and it tricks me again. D*mn you... *shakes fist* :D

Seekeepeek wrote:
miesny_jez wrote: [*] Shapechange [9](HIGHLY ADVISED)
From my experience when playing a sorcerer way back then you should avoid shapechaging at all cost. back then it ruined you stored spells pretty bad. You'd start out with 5 lvl nine spells and after a shapechange you'd have half. could use it as a last option tho.
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Then go on with your idea and die...
Your an idiot and the party hopes the next character you role is smarter...
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