Dissecting the role for the new paladin:

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Seven Sons of Sin
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Dissecting the role for the new paladin:

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:13 pm

I'm a little out of the practical loop on how recent changes to a variety of traditional "paladin things" have impacted the class - the changes to Knights, the new paladin-specific gear and other crafting gear, spell changes, and the CoT-changes, and so forth.

What do new paladin builds look like? Are smiters out-of-fashion, in favour for more sustain-focused "dps" sort of role?

The 1.5x Divine Might change seems pretty substantial, especially coupled with the already +2 AB bonus to 2handed. Do 2handed paladins encapsulate a significant more "burst" role, that broadens the niche of paladins?

Are bards the best dip class? Are Knights the best "support" multiclass, instead of bards?

Is CoT a good rival to fighter now, now with Oath of Wrath on cooldown?

The Lay of Hands on cooldown seems to make CHA a lot more powerful. Where does a STR paladin shine?

With the spell changes - Bless Weapon, Deafening Clang, Holy Sword - where does this put the class for what sort of weapon to gun for?

What's the best "new gear"? Is the Holy Chain sort of garbage, or can a typical low-dex paladin make use of it?
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Re: Dissecting the role for the new paladin:

Post by Astral » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:39 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:What do new paladin builds look like? Are smiters out-of-fashion, in favour for more sustain-focused "dps" sort of role?
Paladin is a very versatile class these days. They can work with many sub-optimal combinations (monk dispeller, cot smiter, etc) and the optimal as far as I know is 23 paladin 4 fighter 3 rogue (str based, cha secondary). Can work with 2hand perfectly fine and enjoy the 1.5x divine might for the cost of the ac you dont get from shield.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Are bards the best dip class? Are Knights the best "support" multiclass, instead of bards?
Only scenarios I see "bards > rogue" dip is when you need spellcraft for saves really badly, or when you dont have another source of discipline, none of which relevant here imo.
Its really hard to compare epic bard song to the Knight class. I'd say the bard song is over all better but it's situational at best.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Is CoT a good rival to fighter now, now with Oath of Wrath on cooldown?

The Lay of Hands on cooldown seems to make CHA a lot more powerful. Where does a STR paladin shine?
These are cool boons to smiters. I wouldnt build anything specifically around them on a paladin.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:With the spell changes - Bless Weapon, Deafening Clang, Holy Sword - where does this put the class for what sort of weapon to gun for?
Basin made weapon with keen, eventually. Maybe mastery damask for Holy Sword for higher base damage.
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Hunter548
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Re: Dissecting the role for the new paladin:

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:12 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:I'm a little out of the practical loop on how recent changes to a variety of traditional "paladin things" have impacted the class - the changes to Knights, the new paladin-specific gear and other crafting gear, spell changes, and the CoT-changes, and so forth.

What do new paladin builds look like? Are smiters out-of-fashion, in favour for more sustain-focused "dps" sort of role?
Smiters are still as good as they ever were -- Which is to say, they're extremely situational and will struggle in PvE, but are very good in that one situation they have (Destroying evil characters in a round). Strength paladin has always been the way to go for a broader character; Now you can simply play a strength paladin who's mostly paladin rather than mostly fighter, and not gimp yourself.
The 1.5x Divine Might change seems pretty substantial, especially coupled with the already +2 AB bonus to 2handed. Do 2handed paladins encapsulate a significant more "burst" role, that broadens the niche of paladins?
Not really. 2handed paladins tend to be fairly squishy, all things considered. You can make it work with a lot of CoT (and possibly kensai), but that'll play very differently compared to most paladins.
Are bards the best dip class? Are Knights the best "support" multiclass, instead of bards?
They aren't for majority-paladins. Bardadins, however, are still extremely strong. PDK doesn't outclass bard as a support build to my mind.
Is CoT a good rival to fighter now, now with Oath of Wrath on cooldown?
You mean divine wrath? Sort of. CoT is an excellent substitute for fighter in builds that are either A) Very burst-y (Barbarians, Monk-Rogues, 2handed divine might users, etc). It's not as great of one in, say, a standard 1 handed strength paladin to my mind, by virtue of needing more levels to get use out of divine wrath. You can get away with 4 fighter levels for a lot of value. COT really wants 10 or more.
The Lay of Hands on cooldown seems to make CHA a lot more powerful. Where does a STR paladin shine?
CHA will have a lot more healing, sure, but with enough paladin levels even a strength based one will have a very respectable amount of healing (My paladin who I played recently did 230 points of healing, for example). CHA paladin struggles for AB, and is significantly more reliant on divine might for damage; I still wouldn't play a cha paladin unless it was a smiter who are still niche (See above)
With the spell changes - Bless Weapon, Deafening Clang, Holy Sword - where does this put the class for what sort of weapon to gun for?
If you mean what kind of weapon, the same stuff is still good: Rapiers, Scimitars. They're especially good for a paladin because you can ensure you have a keen weapon without hugely sacrificing damage (Compared to, say, a WM) by getting a bronze weapon enchanted with keen (plus other stuff if you want), and then slapping it with bless weapon.

Deafening clang is just a short term slightly-better-temp-essence spell, while Holy Sword is primarily an anti-caster trick (Though it's still worth using as a short term buff ala Divine Favor vs other types, especially if they're significantly buffed or evil).

Holy Sword actually being useful also gives rise to what I'd consider the "standard" paladin build now; 23 paladin, 4 fighter, 3 rogue. You take GSF abjuration both to immunize yourself against IGMS and make your dispel-stick that much stronger, and generally end up as a versatile front-line fighter that's extremely good against all kinds of casters, and can still perform well against other meleers if you play well.
What's the best "new gear"? Is the Holy Chain sort of garbage, or can a typical low-dex paladin make use of it?
The Holy Chain and Holy Padded Armor are both 100% trash. Forget they exist. You have to jump through a lot of hoops to get as much AC from them as you would from templar armor (More on this in a second), and the upside isn't that useful; Harm immunity is a blast from 2011 and probably less worthwhile now -- I haven't been harmed in literal years in pvp -- and the 1/day use of Word of Faith, while nice, doesn't exactly offset the ac-hoops you have to jump through; Especially since making the armor requires a source of WoF scrolls, you should have UMD anyways, and templar armor is so much easier to make.

Templar Armor is +3 halfplate that also has +3 charisma on it; In essence, it's adamantine fullplate that trades 1 ac for 3 charisma. That three charisma allows you to max your charisma via casting eagle's splendor and aura of glory, and then focus on str/con for the rest of your gear. It's standard for any heavy armor using charisma build, to my mind, and not even hugely prohibitive to make; Mithril, Ruby Dust and WoF scrolls are all expensive, but not as expensive as the Mithril Dust you need for the Holy Paladin Chain.

Paladins do have a class-specific item in the form of the celestial crown that's very good, however. Part of why the paladin chain is so bad (in my mind) is any mithril dust you manage to get ahold of should be used to make these babies -- Because they rock. They're a +2 helm with runic on them, that versus evil creatures is a +3 helm, and versus outsiders, dragons, or undead is a +5 helm. Most of the time, this is going to be the equivalent of an adamantine helm that you enchanted +1 charisma or strength onto. Versus outsiders and undead, both of which are common at epic levels, it's even better than adamantine.
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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Dissecting the role for the new paladin:

Post by Scurvy Cur » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:29 pm

Seconding the statement that paladins are quite versatile right now. I'd consider the following builds viable, with certain caveats, and each of them does a different thing:

Paladin 23/Fighter 4/Rogue 3, which Hunter has covered already.

Fighter 23/Paladin 4/Rogue 3, either elf/helf or human with enough UMD for a moonblade. This functions as a very durable and reliable frontline paladin with oodles of feats, solid passive AB, great saves, and a strong AC spike, plus a +5 keen weapon.

Fighter 5-6/Paladin 4-5/CoT 20, Kensai - Can be played one of several ways, but the main selling point is a 2.5 min window where it is durable, hard to hit, next to impervious to DC spells, and furnished with a potent offens.

Bard 20/Fighter 6/Paladin 4 - Remains a staple top tier melee build. Usual caveats apply, with a note that the ability to effectively shift 1 AC into 3 attribute points via templar armor is a relatively good trade for this build.

Pal 16-17/CoT 10/Rogue 3, Smiter - Performs basically the same as before, but DW on a cooldown makes PvE on this build a lot less tedious, and it also shores up one of its classic weaknesses by picking up 3 attribute points, courtesy of templar armor.


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Cybernet21
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Re: Dissecting the role for the new paladin:

Post by Cybernet21 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:56 am

I really wish i could say something on it,but i just came to say that the guys above me know really well of paladins so yeah they probably are the best insight you will get on this ;)

EDIT:Also while reading this i am here really hoping my build isnt too suboptimal :lol:
My family were all knights,but none protected those who cannot fight for themselves.They all cared about their noble status more than anything else.I would be a true knight,i would train on the ways of the paladin -Arcavius Ryde

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