Bad Build Questions

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One Two Three Five
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Bad Build Questions

Post by One Two Three Five » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:05 pm

I've got a handful of bad builds in mind and am wondering how to optimize them/need to see how bad they are so I wont do them.

So:
1. What sort of build would best utilize a whip?
2. Precisely how good are ranger spells vs not having spells on a ranger?
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MoreThanThree
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by MoreThanThree » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:12 pm

One Two Three Five wrote:1. What sort of build would best utilize a whip?
Caster cleric.
One Two Three Five wrote:2. Precisely how good are ranger spells vs not having spells on a ranger?
The only spells a ranger has that one would ever use are Camouflage, One With The Land, and Blade Thirst. The rest of the spells a ranger has can be purchased as wands to use with UMD.
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Conversations With Your Car Alarm » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:14 pm

1) You could get by with a whip if you were strength based and had another source of damage. Divine Power, WM criticals, Sneak Attacks. It's not optimal, but it could be very cool.

2) That depends on how many Ranger levels you have. If your taking Ranger for the dual wielding and not investing past 9 or 10 levels, skip it. If your going for BoE, you should have 14 wisdom so you can take advantage of the cool buffs to Blade Thirst and the utility spells.

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WanderingPoet
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by WanderingPoet » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:17 pm

2. That depends on the number of ranger levels - blade thirst is pretty great but works best with a good number of ranger levels (and you need at least 12) - you'd want at least 16 ranger levels to make it worth while. One with the Land and Camouflage are great if you want to be a sneaker, protection from elements is all around good and freedom of movement is useful.

Again though, if you are going something like 27 ranger? The spells are useful, anything less than 16 I'd say no. Even then, your buff spells are going to get dispelled if you don't have too many ranger levels.

If its a matter of having the wisdom to cast or not? Anything less than 20 ranger I'd probably say no. If its kensai or not, keep in mind Rangers get access to /most/ divine spell wands, including restoration, death ward, etc - so they're pretty handy and greatly extend the ranger spell list.

Practically speaking, outside of blade thirst, you could get away with low wisdom and just use wands as well even with high levels of ranger!
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Baron Saturday » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:46 pm

If I was bound and determined to make a whip work, I'd probably make a spellsword or a Drow Battlecleric and hope like crazy to get a certain rare loot drop.

I'd also spam the suggestion forum with requests to make GMW/Darkfire/Flame Weapon ignore the Bonus Feat: Disarm on whips, or ask for a whip without that property.
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Opustus » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:32 pm

Any DEXy sneak attack build without enough feats for dualwield could also crack the whip without unbearable regrets. Though the self-harm of wielding a whip is awesome, Loviatar's dope yo.
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One Two Three Five
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by One Two Three Five » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:59 am

blepth my comment got rollbackd. thanks for the answers to the others yall

Last bad question: There a workable werewolf setup, now that monk's out?
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:08 am

What all even merges into werewolf shape? Same as non-totem druid?
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One Two Three Five
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by One Two Three Five » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:28 am

I'm ~relatively certain it uses the same script as totem?
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:51 am

Hmmm. I wonder what would happen if you did a kensai barbarian, raged, and then shifted - like, I could see the will bonus from rage actually helping to maintain control of the werewolf form, though obviously the damage bonus from rage would be lost.

Thundering Rage + Kensai would give 6 APR, assuming that all translates into werewolf form. Plus having a barbarian turn into a werewolf when he rages would just be real cool.

Somebody wake Cortex up, this question is right up his alley.
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Nitro
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Nitro » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:07 am

You should be able to rage while in werewolf form, you can usually use all innate class abilities while shapeshifted, like animal companion, bard song, barbarian rage etc.

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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Beneidalus » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:22 am

There's a few nifty whips in the loot matrix. One is actually directly geared towards rangers/druids with a chunky handle animal bonus, and a once per day spell to buff your animal companion, with another whip being more combat oriented and specifically oriented towards drow, like baron saturday mentioned (think it has the required properties, evil & elf).

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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Opustus » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:29 pm

I would steer away from anything spell-reliant as the werewolf is fairly trigger-sensitive. A werewolf Bard11/Master Harper5 would be kewl if it weren't for the Cure Lycantrophy song!

So monks aren't immune to lycantrophy anymore? Haven't even noticed that.

A few things off the top of my dome:
-Monk16/Rogue10/BG4, Rogue19/Monk6/BG5 (BG4 for taunt), or any mix of that
-PDK/BG/Rogue, PDK/BG/Fighter, and so on
-Palemaster or DwD would be fun, but a bit iffy thematically!
-Harper Scout ought to be powerful, but my brains run out of imagination as to how to justify it RPly.
-SD would be supakewl and probably vurry powerful, but I'm unsure if the shadow copies the wolf form.
-Barbarian16 or 15 would work for Terrifying rage and Taunt, even if the damage bonus would be squandered. With Mighty Rage and Barbarian17 you could try to make a mega-tank with EDRIII, natural DR3, and the werewolf bonuses, which are quite defence heavy. If you could break some magical AC/DR/Regen threshold on Arelith, it could be worth it. This is why the DwD option seems so alluring to me.

Basically, you really want to make use of the free DEX/CON/STR and make the most of your CHA, INT and WIS if going monk. Monk works extremely well as the werewolf shape has no DR pierce, so the Imp Ki Strike feats might be something to actually consider for the build!
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:28 pm

Think you misread there. 1235 meant, "now that Monk's out" as in out of the running/no longer available. I don't imagine that monk werewolves will ever return.

But anyhow, if class abilities can be used while shifted...

Wait. Has anyone tried summoning the SD Shadow while a werewolf?

EDIT: I'm told that SD werewolf is an excellent way to horribly break your character and can take a long time to fix. So don't do that.

Otherwise, I'd go for classes with abailities that can buff AB & damage, as I'm told that tends to lag on a werewolf. Divine Champion (Champion of Malar?) would be an interesting choice, though I imagine you'd have to jump some hoops to get CoT on an evil character.
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Opustus » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:00 pm

Bum-bum. SD5 or 7 for Slippery mind would still be helpful, though. Plus the tasty HiPS. Could still get Epic Dodge with that, it's that good and SD gets Shadow roll at 5 regardless. And you wouldn't be such a pile of dung without the shape, if you ever decided the life of seclusion were too much a problem with RP, which I'd imagine to be the most horrible character to play unless you're a fun-seeking PKer or have a whole pack of wolves to back you up.
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:10 pm

I don't actually know what part of the combination of SD and werewolf bugs out. Probably a good idea to just avoid that in general.
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Opustus » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:16 pm

Or test it for posterity!
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Terenfel » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:06 am

i think anybuild that would be broken from not being a werewolf would be a very bad idea. Werewolf is ment to be a temporary diease that you want cured..

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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Baron Saturday » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:40 am

Terenfel wrote:i think anybuild that would be broken from not being a werewolf would be a very bad idea. Werewolf is ment to be a temporary diease that you want cured..
That's a discussion to be had IC. Besides, nobody is saying that that a build which benefits from being a werewolf has to be BAD when not in werewolf shape.

Thematically, I still like Kensai Barbarian w/ Thundering Rage best, and it fits quite well with real world lore on berserkers, though of course this doesn't completely translate to Forgotten Realms.
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by DarkDreamer » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:43 am

Terenfel wrote:i think any build that would be broken from not being a werewolf would be a very bad idea. Werewolf is men to be a temporary disease that you want cured..
Actually, if there is proper RP reason, not everyone wants it cured.

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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Terenfel » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:49 pm

i know it can have RP reasons, but just think back on the days with monks without any physical stats, becouse they dont matter when they are in werewolf form is a extreme example of why not to make build so it wont work without the diease.

i like the Werewolf RP, as a temporary thing. but in my mind being a character that likes to be a werewolf is close to a major award.

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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:50 pm

MoreThanThree wrote:
One Two Three Five wrote:1. What sort of build would best utilize a whip?
Caster cleric.
One Two Three Five wrote:2. Precisely how good are ranger spells vs not having spells on a ranger?
The only spells a ranger has that one would ever use are Camouflage, One With The Land, and Blade Thirst. The rest of the spells a ranger has can be purchased as wands to use with UMD.
And mass camo, and freedom, and cats grace. Aid can also be helpful (+1 AB is always nice), as can protection from elements. Invis purge can be useful situationally.
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Ork
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Ork » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:49 pm

They nerfed Camo so they no longer stack. You could possibly get 21 levels of ranger without casting a single spell from the spellbook. +4 from Blade Thirst is nice, but you could always go the route of racial +4 weapons.

Greater Magic Fang is pretty useful tho.

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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by RedGiant » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:44 am

On the barbarian rage + werewolf question...I'm 90% they updated barbarian rage damage to NOT work unarmed. So, at least for the damage potential, this doesn't net you a lot.

Since you can't peak early with barbarian anymore, this is a change that could likely be rolled back, since I think this change may indeed to have been to prevent some of the possibilities of raging while shape-changed.

Honestly, why shouldn't you be more dangerous when your raging, even if you're unarmed though? And now since it takes a lot of barbarian to be really dangerous, and you can't two-hand unarmed attacks, I think the potential abuse here is minimal. My quick number crunching yields a generally sub-par damage potential even if we would grant rage bonus to unarmed barbarian. The thing your really gain, I suppose, is short-term survivability.

It might be worth a suggestion to revert this particular wrinkle.
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Bad Build Questions

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:59 am

Yeah, the barbarian damage bonus only applies to melee weapons. The reason I specified Kensai Barb with thundering rage is that those give you 2 more APR at full AB. But damage would, admittedly, be mediocre.

Blackguard becomes a somewhat attractive alternative (or addition, even), using Divine Might to increase damage.

CoT would probably work best, with Divine Wrath buffing AB and damage for offense AND saves to help keep control, but might require a 5% roll to be evil. Not sure where the teams stands on that, currently.
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