Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

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If Valor Were Inches
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Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by If Valor Were Inches » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:59 pm

So I'm 12 levels into my character and I'm realizing it would make a whole lot of sense IC for a paladin of Mystra to eventually take wizard levels. But I'm not sure how many I should take, the thought is between 3 and 7.

Also Greater Focus Abjuration or Transmutation?

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Zavandar
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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by Zavandar » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:13 pm

While I agree with you thematically, I don't see this doing anything other than hurting the character mechanically. I'm sure there are some odd builds out there that take majority spellsword with paladin dips for Cha saves and div might/shield , but that doesn't seem to be the standard.

That being said, what (if any) was your third class going to be?
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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by Hammerwell » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:18 pm

Have you considered sorceress instead?

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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by If Valor Were Inches » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:40 pm

Yes, wizard will hurt the character, but I don't mind.

I thought about sorcerer, but the Knights of Mystic Fire tend to be guild wizards, so I thought it would make more sense if they studied arcane. Maybe if there is lore on them being sorcerers, but I'm not sure how to justify my PC suddenly having arcane potential without study.

No third class. I was planning on at least 23 paladin levels before taking on an arcane class for thematics.

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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by Zavandar » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:59 pm

Being a half BAB class, I recommend taking an even number of wizard levels pre-epic if you're going to take them pre-epic at all. You'll maximize your BAB if you do 20 straight paladin pre-epic.

5 wizard provides a bonus feat, and 23 paladin also provides one--as does 26. As such, you're probably looking at 25/5 or 27/3. The net feats are the same.

I don't see any benefit to taking more than 3 wizard levels, personally. Deafening clang actually reaches its +7 damage cap at 27 paladin, which is some incentive to go that high. Bless weapon's bonuses also cap at 26 paladin, making 25/5 look even less appealing.

For reference:
Bless Weapon: Can be applied to magic/enchanted weapons. The enhancement bonus improves to +2 at caster level 11, and improves by another +1 for every 5 caster levels, capping at +5 at level 26. At caster level 13, the +2d6 damage bonus also applies to outsiders. At caster level 18, the +2d6 damage bonus also applies to dragons.
Deafening Clang: Can be applied to magic/enchanted weapons. Deals 1 of Sonic damage at level 1. 2 at 7, and increases by +1 every 4 levels thereafter, capping at 7 of damage.
Abjuration is great for holy sword, and transmutation is good for remedying your MAD stats. I haven't really played a paladin, so I can't tell you which you'd like more. I know a lot of paladins, though, and they love holy sword--especially because you can put it on other people.
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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by Nitro » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:26 am

If you just dip 3 spellsword and grab the spellsword path you can get some neat bonus out of weapon imbues via wands and scrolls for the high-tier imbues, provided you aren't relying on summons a lot in combat. That's about the best choice I can think of.

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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by Scurvy Cur » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:40 am

The best option is probably to bard dip.

Barring that, when the dust clears on spellsword, that might not be a terrible choice.


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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by If Valor Were Inches » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:54 am

I will definitely not bard-dip, though I know it's a great choice! I'm currently cross-classing tumble and can live with just 3 points in it.

I will consider 3 levels of wizard and spellsword though, or Maybe 4 sorcerer if that path makes more sense.

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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by Zavandar » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:23 am

Spellsword bonuses could potentially be ridiculous actually.

Consider this for paladin:
At 21 paladin levels, the character gains a CL +3 against Dispels.
Tack on this from spellsword:
They gain +3 CL against dispels
Both are from the wiki. With a 27/3 spread, assuming both stack (they very well might not, so take this with a grain of salt), you'd be caster level 33 vs. dispels. That means a DC of 45. Casters with ESF: Abjur cap at 46, so that means even the best dispellers will only have a 10% chance to dispel you (again, assuming it all stacks).

Wizard also simulates having UMD somewhat. You still won't have access to divine scrolls I think, namely Word of Faith.
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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by Freyason » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:44 am

I think you'd be level 30 paladin for divine spells, level 6 spellsword for arcane spells. Also wouldn't he get divine scrolls from being a paladin? :)

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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:49 am

Zavandar wrote:Wizard also simulates having UMD somewhat. You still won't have access to divine scrolls I think, namely Word of Faith.
Tangent: Are paladins not able to read divine scrolls?
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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by Zavandar » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:50 am

@Freyason
You may be right on both accounts.

I feel like I remember that you only get to use scrolls of your actual class. For example, I don't believe that rangers can use WoF scrolls despite being divine casters.

EDIT:
Here's an except from the NWN Wiki (not Arelith's):
This check is a standard skill check (d20 + skill level) against a DC of 25 + spell innate level. If this check is passed, the spell is cast normally. If the check is failed, the spell has no effect (but the scroll is still consumed). This check is not rolled (automatic success) if the scroll has no class limitations, the character has at least one bard, sorcerer, or wizard level, or if the character has the spell in question prepared (ready to cast). It does apply to all other characters who have at least one level in rogue, shadowdancer, or assassin, even if that character has a class that is allowed to use the scroll normally.
Whole article can be found here: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Scroll

It seems that dipping arcane lets you have access to all arcane scrolls, but there's no such equivalent for divine. To use a WoF scroll, it looks like you either need UMD or to be a cleric.
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Lorkas
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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by Lorkas » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:29 am

That check is not implemented in Arelith. The UMD check for scrolls is just based on the gp value of the scroll. 10 is enough to use all scrolls, if I'm not mistaken.

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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by Zavandar » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:46 am

I still think that, in the absence of UMD, a paladin can't use a WoF scroll.

Please take what I say with a grain of salt!
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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by Improv » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:03 am

Wizard gets you free scribe scroll feat, that may have use. Probably not so much if you take wand crafting too which many paladins seem to but still.

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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by dallion43 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:33 am

26 paladin/4SSword(Wiz SS,lvls 26-29).
3 Tstrikes, 2 darkness per rest. Verbal only, ASF isn't a factor.
2 flat damage from SS int(I hope you have 14int, since taunt)
Cantrip imbue 1d4(frost, less people with 5/-, or elec but elec is annoying)
~50 spellcraft, since no cross class anymore.
Scribe your own stack of balagan scrolls. Always handy.

Now when divine power is clers only, and paladins no longer can cast it from a scroll, 3 TS per rest isn't bad, saves some TS potions. TS+imp.knok.

But, I would recommend, if wizard is a must; 21 Pal(1-20,30)/4 fighter(21-24)/5 Wiz(SS,25-29). Paladins of any religion are a fighters of good :p. They do swing weapons at their enemies as their primary argument in a dispute after all, so fighter fits well ).

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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by Nitro » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:11 pm

Cantrip imbue 1d4(frost, less people with 5/-, or elec but elec is annoying)
Seems much more valuable to get scrolls of delayed blast fireball or Finger of Death for a t3 imbue on your weapon(s). The fire imbue particularly helps you hit all your attacks easier, it's basically a low-power taunt (that stacks with taunt).

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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by dallion43 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:06 pm

The imbue DC of such scroll even with t3 is very low, but yeah for damage it is an option of course.

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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by Zavandar » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:45 pm

Yes, DC's would be extremely low.

The magic one doesn't have a DC, though. Pair that with a gsf: abjur holy sword and.. hm.

I don't really like building around scrolls though. That mechanic seems gimmicky, and the dispel roll might not work as we think.
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Re: Paladin/Wizard(?) help.

Post by Scurvy Cur » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:58 pm

Dispel roll fires a gdispel at your spellsword level when it proc, abj focii taken into account. So if you're only dipping spellsword, it's actual garbage.


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