E-dodge Brycer

[High Primate]

Thanks to TheRagingGoblin for input on this build. I'm wondering if there's a way to tweak it to fix its low HP (either by tweaking its race, stats, or class spread),* because otherwise it achieves some very respectable numbers: 72 AC along with Epic Dodge, damage in the 100s when fully buffed and sneaking, and decent AB and saves. This is a blackguard version, which sacrifices a feat, but one could also make a Paladin or Harper Paragon variant. I've tooled around with it in PGCC and it's quite fun to play. Gear for Str and Cha, and Con if possible (you'd need some very nice runic items to do that, of course).

*Edit: This build is probably best as a Harper Paragon. You don't need the 13 str pre-req to meet the requirements for DM/DS, so you can start w/ 8 strength and put more attributes into Con to help with the HP issue. You won't get taunt, although you already have a somewhat solid AB.

Race: Elf
Stats: Str - 13, Dex - 19 (26), Con - 12, Wis - 8, Int - 13, Cha - 16

1. Rogue (1) Expertise
2. Rogue (2)
3. Rogue (3) Weapon Focus: Rapier, Make sure to get 5 hide
4. Ftr (1) Weapon Finesse
5. Ftr (2) Power Attack
6. Ftr (3) Improved Expertise
7. Ftr (4) Weapon Spec: Rapier
8. Ftr (5)
9. Ftr (6) Cleave, Toughness
10. BG (1)
11. BG (2)
12. BG (3) - Divine Might
13. Ftr (7)
14. Ftr (8) - Improved Crit: Rapier
15. BG (4) - Divine Shield
16. Ftr (9)
17. Ftr (10) - Blind Fight
18. Ftr (11) - KD
19. Rogue (4)
20. Rogue (5)*
21. Rogue (6) - Epic Weapon Focus: Rapier
22. Rogue (7)
23. Rogue (8)
24. Ftr (12) - Epic Weapon Spec: Rapier, Armor Skin
25. Rogue (9)
26. Rogue (10) - Improved Evasion
27. Rogue (11) - Epic Skill Focus: Discipline
28. Rogue (12)
29. BG (5)
30. Rogue (13) - Defensive Roll, Epic Dodge

*Alternatively, take 4 rogue and 5 BG pre-epic for +1 BAB. If you want to make use of taunt, however, take the 5th BG level in epics to max our your taunt. Provided the taunt is successful, this is functionally equivalent to more AB.

[caldura firebourne]

You could sacrifice UMD and drop rogue levels entirely and qualify for Edodge with just 5 shadowdancer levels, allowing you to sink 8 more levels into fighter or blackguard

But then you'd be reliant on casters for your magic, or potions

[High Primate]

You could sacrifice UMD and drop rogue levels entirely and qualify for Edodge with just 5 shadowdancer levels, allowing you to sink 8 more levels into fighter or blackguard

But then you'd be reliant on casters for your magic, or potions

5 SD alone can't get e-dodge. You need 10, unless there's some Arelith-specific change in play that I'm ignorant of. But in any case, this is a build that definitely wants UMD.

[Conversations With Your Car Alarm]

I would do a gear split of DEX/CHR/CON. You can get your STR up to low 20s with Wand, Skleen, Blackguard Bulls.

I would also just do leveling like this, and just accept the AB loss. It gives you more Epic Feats anyways.
01: Rogue(1):
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Rogue(3): {Uncanny Dodge I}
04: Fighter(1)
05: Fighter(2)
06: Fighter(3)
07: Fighter(4)
08: Fighter(5)
09: Fighter(6)
10: Blackguard(1)
11: Blackguard(2): {Smite Good}
12: Blackguard(3)
13: Rogue(4)
14: Rogue(5)
15: Blackguard(4)
16: Fighter(7)
17: Fighter(8)
18: Rogue(6)
19: Rogue(7)
20: Rogue(8)
21: Fighter(9)
22: Fighter(10)
23: Fighter(11)
24: Fighter(12)
25: Rogue(9)
26: Rogue(10)
27: Rogue(11)
28: Rogue(12)
29: Blackguard(5)
30: Rogue(13)

[Zavandar]

Actually seems pretty okay.

Imp evasion with Cha saves will be great. Gearing it will be a nightmare, though. Dex for AC and AB, str for damage, con for health, cha for all that stuff. Also, one of the benefits of going regular brycer is the 23 fighter bonus with a racial weapon, making it +5. This doesn't get that.

Pros and cons to both ways of building it. I think you got something neat here.

EDIT:

Also, leveling it the order Conversations suggests gives you one less AB but one epic feat.. which could just be epic prowess to even it out. The only difference is +/- one reflex/will.

Also! At 24 you have yourself only getting epic weapon spec, but you can grab two feats on that level because it's an even fighter level. That could also be epic prowess. I think Conversation's method could work for a non-elf, as the extra feat could be spent on great dex to allow a non-elf to start on 16 dex.

[High Primate]

EDIT:

Also! At 24 you have yourself only getting epic weapon spec, but you can grab two feats on that level because it's an even fighter level. That could also be epic prowess. I think Conversation's method could work for a non-elf, as the extra feat could be spent on great dex to allow a non-elf to start on 16 dex.

I forgot to add in armor skin. That's what I currently have.

Also, thanks for the advice. I may go human and build it the way Convo suggests.

[Nitro]

I don't know what a brycer is and at this point I'm too scared to ask.

[High Primate]

Traditionally, it's a str and cha based Fighter 23/BG or Paladin 4/Rogue or Bard 3. This one is dex and cha based and adds more rogue levels for sneak damage.

[Improv]

How did that come to be? "Bryce" is close the least scariest Blackguard name I can imagine. I think of a Bryce as a quiet kid with braces who plays the tuba in junior high band.

[Zavandar]

BG gets dark blessing, which is the equivalent to divine grace. BG just isn't fear immune, but that's a separate feat anyway.

You don't need power attack/cleave as a paragon, but you do need iron will and alertness. That being said, you also don't have to spend feats on divine might and power, so it's a gain. You also get the two bonus feats, but that means waiting until epic to take Harper. This means an 8/12 fighter/rogue split pre-epic, because fighter has to be taken in epics. This leads to 16 pre-epic AB. This can be remedied somewhat with Harper's ability to take great dex.

Of note, neither Harper nor paladin get sneak attacks.

[Baron Saturday]

How did that come to be? "Bryce" is close the least scariest Blackguard name I can imagine. I think of a Bryce as a quiet kid with braces who plays the tuba in junior high band.

Once upon a time there was a paladin named Bryce. He whooped all the butt, and now similar builds are called Brycers in his absolutely terrifying memory.

For gearing, consider Templar's Armor (+3 Cha) and maybe Blackguard's Helmet (+2 Cha) to help ease the MAD.

[Zavandar]

Templar armor would negate the dex ac, unfortunately.

[Opustus]

I think you should be wearing two different gearsets, one for dungeon crawling, other for spontaneous PKing. The former would have DEX/STR/CHA for maximum damage output, and for the latter high CON would ensure better Fort and not dying automatically to high damage stuff like Ice storm. STR would be omissible, can't think of other stuff than Balagarn's horn that would punish you.

This seems a lot like the WM/Fighter/Rogue DEX build with reliant damage output from WM traded for Divine steroids from BG, and HP from more starting CON traded for more saves from Divine Grace. It seems more gimmicky, but not brokenly so.

[Baron Saturday]

Templar armor would negate the dex ac, unfortunately.

Herp.

Derrrrrrp.

[Zavandar]

Here are a few starting spreads I was looking at for this.



Parenthesis is for after racial/ecl bonuses.

Drow could be really nasty. Cha saves on top of 32 SR. I'll work on the leveling spread shortly.

EDIT:
Alrighty, so here's the elf/drow spread that I was able to make that is 8f/8r/4bg pre-epic

Notice what's missing? Improved critical. I think your initial spread of 11f/5r/4bg is best for elf, because it wants that feat pre-epic, though I suppose at 24 you could grab imp crit. Alternatively, you could grab blind fight at lvl 6 and imp crit at 18, sacrificing toughness. You'll still have over 400 health when buffed.

The 8/8/4 spread does seem like it'd be great for a human, though. Gets more skill points, too!

[Zavandar]

More math:


These numbers look pretty solid.

[Baron Saturday]

You're looking at 308 base HP, 278 if you drop toughness for imp crit, which I would totally do. If you're able to get +12 con, that's 488/458 HP, which - considering that you've got AC in the 70s and edodge - should be more than enough.

[Opustus]

I can already imagine the 1v1 skirmishes with a paladin of Corellon pitted against a Lolthite blackguard. EDIT: Though obviously Fighter10/Pally4/Rogue16 or CoT10/Pally4/Rogue16.

[High Primate]

I think human and moon elf are the best, respectively. The human can fit toughness and get an extra skill point, while the elf (built as I suggested) can get toughness and a higher BAB.

More math:


These numbers look pretty solid.

I think something's wrong here. You don't have barkskin or addy helm, and even with those, I can't get its AC above 72, so I think some of these numbers don't stack. Mine also doesn't have the 10 charisma bonus--maybe that's cause I have it wearing an addy helm, fine silk shirt, and fine elven boots.

[Zavandar]

Oh, right, you'd cap at out at 28 cha.

Shadow Shield provides 5 natural AC--2 more than a barkskin pot's 3. That's why it isn't shown. Barkskin is, of course, much more accessible. A potion of shielding provides 4 deflection--1 more than an addy helm's 3. I know you'll probably be running an addy helm, but I was just illustrating best case scenario.

That takes it from 76 to 73, but I fudged the Cha bonus, so subtract 1--72, like you mathed out.

EDIT:
Oh! And we forgot the +1 chest and shield AC from 10 fighter.

[High Primate]

Nice. This is some really epic AC.

[Zavandar]

Pros and cons to both.

E-dodge, Cha saves, div might and great sneaks vs. more AC (I think?), crit/sneak immune, dracolich.

Entirely different RP, though. So yeah.