Palemaster spellsword

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Ozzy.nl
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Palemaster spellsword

Post by Ozzy.nl » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:27 am

Heya i was wondering is it actualy viable to still make a old style spell sword only with palemaster wizard fighter palemaster. So i was wondering. How would sughs a build actualy look? And is it actualy strong enough or even usefull?

Astral
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by Astral » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:05 am

The classes got 0 synergy intentionally.
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by rookie » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:09 am

Few things to expand on the synergy point and I may make some mistakes here from flawed understanding of spellsword:

You're probably only going to want 10 PM levels for crit immunity. I don't think you can have both epic mage armor from 15ish levels of pale master AND the AB boost from spellsword.

You're only going to have 3 attacks a round as the 4th attack requires epic spellsword levels?

Your on-hit spellsword stuff will have lower saving throws as you'll only have 16-17 levels of spellsword as you're going to want a 3rd class in there for discipline/tumble.

Ozzy.nl
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by Ozzy.nl » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:10 am

I meant without the spellsword path.

So a simple wizard no spellsword path.
Fighter
Palemaster.

As i said the old school spellsword only in name not path

rookie
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by rookie » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:15 am

I think they normally do bard for the arcane so you get tumble as well. Here is the build from Discord's build-dump:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

You could supplement wizard instead of bard if you really wanted to and shift the stats a little but it would probably not be as well off as what is presented. Lowering fighter to 4 levels would give you a CL of 18 but you're going to suffer in the AB, AC, and feat department with a build that is already pretty meh at offense, especially as you'd need to shift stats towards int.

Ozzy.nl
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by Ozzy.nl » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:24 am

I was asking for wizard vecause of all the spells synergy with palemaster aka you get the higher spell levels.

rookie
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by rookie » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:28 am

Yeah I ninja edited my post with a bit more information. A CL of 18 is going to make you dispel bait for anything that is actually a threat for your level.

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frightnight
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by frightnight » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:14 am

best thing to do.....

contact your local DM and demand that pale master CL synergy..synergize with spellblade levels

you know you want red scimitar hasted pale master bone arm jedis flipping through the air cutting a swath at good align blue scimitar wielding elf jedi spellswords
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by One Two Three Five » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:40 am

frightnight wrote:best thing to do.....

contact your local DM and demand that pale master CL synergy..synergize with spellblade levels

you know you want red scimitar hasted pale master bone arm jedis flipping through the air cutting a swath at good align blue scimitar wielding elf jedi spellswords
1. Not the best thing to do
2. DMs don't have a say in class balance
3. If the devs/coder-in-particular working on spellsword wanted to support a notorious 'dragonshaper easy' powerbuild, it'd probably be in by now.
4. There isn't, really, any sort of 'pale master CL synergy.' Half caster levels with zero other benefits is a bad, bad deal on a caster.
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frightnight
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by frightnight » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:55 am

One Two Three Five wrote:
frightnight wrote:best thing to do.....

contact your local DM and demand that pale master CL synergy..synergize with spellblade levels

you know you want red scimitar hasted pale master bone arm jedis flipping through the air cutting a swath at good align blue scimitar wielding elf jedi spellswords
1. Not the best thing to do
2. DMs don't have a say in class balance
3. If the devs/coder-in-particular working on spellsword wanted to support a notorious 'dragonshaper easy' powerbuild, it'd probably be in by now.
4. There isn't, really, any sort of 'pale master CL synergy.' Half caster levels with zero other benefits is a bad, bad deal on a caster.
personally I think your comparison with dragonshapers is a little off base as you seem to have stated..so matter of factly...

and they'd only be getting the caster level synergy they should be getting anyhow..why should it work one way and not the other?
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One Two Three Five
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by One Two Three Five » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:04 pm

I mean they do get caster levels though? They just don't get spellsword benefits. Which I imagine is by design. Spellsword stuff isn't really 'caster' stuff, it's spellsword stuff- that's the justification for no epic spells. Their class benefits aren't caster level based, but spellsword level based.
I think your comparison with dragonshapers is a little off base
AC-based palemaster meleers are just as much as an old relic powerbuild as dragonshapers are in NWN. They're even from the same post-expansion-pack era. Very much share the same 'one click and go' type of play, too. They're obviously different for a number of reasons but they are both well within the category of 'simple to build simple to play, strong' NWN standbys together.

Either way maybe put it in the suggestion box if there's actually a suggestion here?
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Ozzy.nl
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by Ozzy.nl » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:58 pm

Folks can we pleasr get on topic. And not create a entire discusion about spellsword synergy with palemaster. For one that will never happen since spellswords dont summon.

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One Two Three Five
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by One Two Three Five » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:05 pm

16 PM/4 wizard/10 fighter, I guess. Your AC will be 3 lower than the bard version, and your AB slightly lower as well. The spells you get from this version over the bard version aren't worth casting at a 3+8=11 caster level. The bard version is better in every way- since it never casts spells, it uses full character-as-caster-level for wands and such.

It's a downgrade but it's doable. I guess.
EDIT: Wait, no. It's way worse since you can't use divine power scrolls to make up your AB/APR problems.
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Ozzy.nl
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by Ozzy.nl » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:12 pm

Right, hmm concidering that all then the bard version is indeed better.

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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by godhand- » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:54 pm

You can do a semi-decent palemaster/wizard melee build if you rely on tensers. but the downside is that it relies on tensers and divine power for your melee to be any good. (tensers and divine power gets your AB to about 46 or so at 30, on 6 attacks hasted... for a whopping 5 rounds.)
Tensers makes up for any of the attacks per round issues (+2 free attacks)- but extended would only last 3 or so minutes a pop. (15 CasterLevel)
AC would be nearing on 80 with Imp Expertise but doing so your melee would be below-average at best, but its made up for with epic mummy dust/dragon knight, throw in some mass hastes and they'll do the work for you.
end result would be pretty fantastic defensive wise (as with all PM builds) - but i don't think playing would be that fun for the most part as you'd be doing alot of big swings with no dings.

6w/5ro/19pm
01: Rogue(1): Blind Fight
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Rogue(3): Weapon Focus: Longsword, {Uncanny Dodge I}
04: Wizard(1): INT+1, {Scribe Scroll}, (INT=18)
05: Wizard(2)
06: Wizard(3): Combat Casting
07: Wizard(4)
08: Pale Master(1): INT+1, (INT=19)
09: Pale Master(2): Extend Spell
10: Pale Master(3): {Darkvision}
11: Pale Master(4)
12: Pale Master(5): INT+1, Expertise, (INT=20)
13: Wizard(5): Spell Focus: Necromancy
14: Pale Master(6)
15: Pale Master(7): Improved Expertise
16: Pale Master(8): CON+1, (CON=13)
17: Pale Master(9)
18: Pale Master(10): Improved Critical: Longsword (Substitutable)
19: Rogue(4)
20: Wizard(6): CON+1, (CON=14)
21: Pale Master(11): Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
22: Pale Master(12)
23: Pale Master(13): Improved Combat Casting
24: Pale Master(14): CON+1, Epic Weapon Focus: Longsword, (CON=15)
25: Pale Master(15)
26: Pale Master(16): Epic Spell: Mummy Dust
27: Pale Master(17): Epic Spell: Epic Mage Armor
28: Pale Master(18): CON+1, (CON=16)
29: Pale Master(19): Epic Spell: Dragon Knight
30: Rogue(5): Armor Skin (Substitutable)
Cortex wrote: Addendum, the immediate above post by godhand is wrong in about every aspect, as were most of his other posts.

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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by Kirito » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:10 am

Don't do that ...

Relying on a pair of spells that are inherently broken is a bad plan (especially when they are on the known list to fix ;) )

(The broken bit comes from tensers and the combination together.

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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by godhand- » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:51 pm

Kirito wrote:Don't do that ...

Relying on a pair of spells that are inherently broken is a bad plan (especially when they are on the known list to fix ;) )

(The broken bit comes from tensers and the combination together.
Which two together?
Which spells are broken and where can i find this known list of things to fix?
Cortex wrote: Addendum, the immediate above post by godhand is wrong in about every aspect, as were most of his other posts.

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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:25 pm

Tenser's and Divine Power, likely.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by Baron Saturday » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:46 pm

From this thread:
Seven Sons of Sin wrote: Contributor: Kirito,
- Spellsword bug fixes (because the bugs seem to be flipping cockroaches...)
- Rework of AB Bonus for Tenser's Transformation/Divine Power/Spellsword
- Ranger buffs that wont wont change how the class behaves
- Maybe archers?
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by godhand- » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:00 pm

Ah. I should have mentioned the build I posted was a non spellsword path spellsword - “old style” as originally suggested in ops post.
As previously mentioned there’s not a lot of synergy between the classes and 6 wizard levels doesn’t get you much out of the spellsword path.
It was just a concept I ran up a long time ago that I still had on hand....
Cortex wrote: Addendum, the immediate above post by godhand is wrong in about every aspect, as were most of his other posts.

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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by Kirito » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:44 am

godhand- wrote:
Kirito wrote:Don't do that ...

Relying on a pair of spells that are inherently broken is a bad plan (especially when they are on the known list to fix ;) )

(The broken bit comes from tensers and the combination together.
Which two together?
Which spells are broken and where can i find this known list of things to fix?
Divine power and tenders. They stack, they shouldn't. Tensers doesn't give you the right AB increase either.

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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by godhand- » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:19 am

Why shouldn’t they stack? Just curious on the reasoning
Cortex wrote: Addendum, the immediate above post by godhand is wrong in about every aspect, as were most of his other posts.

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Lorkas
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by Lorkas » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:53 am

Both are intended to raise your APR to an equal-level fighter, but Tenser's was implemented as a flat +2 APR instead. What should happen for a level 20 cleric is that divine power raises you to 4 APR, then Tenser's dies nothing (to APR) because you're already at 4 APR.

Instead, Tenser's raises you further to 6 APR.

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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by godhand- » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:57 am

Seems legit to me, you're just explaining why they synergize so well - not why that should be fixed :p
Cortex wrote: Addendum, the immediate above post by godhand is wrong in about every aspect, as were most of his other posts.

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One Two Three Five
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Re: Palemaster spellsword

Post by One Two Three Five » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:29 pm

They're both supposed to take you to 'fighter BaB' but instead one of them just gives you extra attacks. They shouldn't stack. It's on the fix list at the top of this forum, even.
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